Getting points is an offensive goal. Preventing points is a defensive goal. That means getting outs is always and only defensive.
The pitcher’s only job is to prevent batters from scoring points. As part of the defense, it’s so critical they’re expected and permitted to be absolutely terrible on the offense (batting). And they usually are terrible batters, essentially a negligible offensive asset. I expect if a pitcher consistently pitched no-hitters or low-hitters, nobody would care if they had a lifetime batting average of zero.
I don’t dispute at all that Curry is good at defense. My point is, that’s not what he’s glamorized for. What makes him glamorous is the fact that he is the deadliest shooter in NBA history. The highlight reels are his barrages of 3-pointers, not his defensive plays.
If you were to ask any random fan wearing the 30 jersey in America, China, or wherever, “Why do you like Curry?”, their answer is much likelier to be something related to his offense than his defense.
Keep in mind that if you go by role, not all pitchers are glamorous. No one cares about middle relievers and LOOGYs (Left-handed One Out GuY). Only starting pitchers and closers get the notice. And even there, a 5th rotation starter isn’t thought of as much more than a warm body.
Pitcher is different from all other defensive positions in any sport I know, because the pitcher starts off with the ball, and thereby has the initiative.
In American football, basketball, hockey, and soccer/football, you’re on offense when you have the ball, period. But in baseball, the team on offense never possesses the ball. And the pitcher is the only defensive player who possesses the ball more than briefly.
I won’t argue that all pitchers are glamorous; I agree with Telemark that it’s all about the starters and closers. But despite the fact that they occupy the same spot on the field and do physically the same thing, middle relief and LOOGY are a sufficiently different role from either starter or closer that they might as well be treated as different positions from starter or closer.
Even the other defensive players in baseball are never glamorous for defense alone. No matter how great a defensive infielder you are, you’re not a star if you’re flirting with the Mendoza line. For instance, the O’s have had star infielders like Cal Ripken Jr. and Brooks Robinson, but Brooks hit 268 career HRs to go with his amazing 3B artistry, and Cal Jr.hit 431 HRs, about 350 of which were during his 16 seasons at SS.
Back in another lifetime, CF was a glamor position, but once again, it was that way because of players like Willie Mays who were good at every part of the game. A CF who is a top defensive player but only so-so with the bat isn’t glamorous.
Same on defense in football. You get a decent share of individual standout players at CB, LB, DE, but a lot more that can only be identified by fans of their particular team.
I think that’s correct most of the time, but not always. The Dallas Cowboys of 1991-1995 are a good example. They had a good year in 1991 but lost in the divisional round of the playoffs (to the Detroit Lions of all teams ). Steve Young’s 49ers were looming large in future years. Then they acquired one of the best edge rushers ever, Charles Haley, from the 49ers and the rest is history. There was a bit of bad luck in the 1994 NFC championship game, but my guess is that without Haley, having Troy Aikman, Emmitt Smith, Michael Irvin, Jay Novacek, the dominant offensive line that they had, and so on wouldn’t have mattered. They would probably not have made, much less won, any Super Bowls with Haley still playing for the 49ers.
One measure of “glamorous” could be what type of plays make game highlight clips of various sports. While you are guaranteed to see lots of offensive plays, touchdowns/homeruns/goals/baskets, you will still see plenty of defensive highlights. NHL: unbelievable goalie save, MLB: diving and at the wall catches, thrown out at the plate from outfielder, strikeouts, NFL: Sacks, interceptions, forced fumble recoveries, NBA: denied layup shot
Then a cricket bowler also fits the bill. Defensive bowling is a thing. There are situations where a slow accumulation of runs through low-risk bowling is preferable to all-out attack.
…I think one of the things I love about cricket is that the bowler doesn’t only have a single job. Sometimes they need to prevent the batsman scoring runs. Sometimes they need to take wickets. Sometimes they need to get the set batsman off strike so they can attack the number 11. Sometimes they can spend a whole day using one particular tactic and other times the tactics can change with each and every delivery.
Making the wrong call can change the course of the match. So with cricket there isn’t a clear defensive/offensive line. It can change ball-to-ball.
In cricket you’ve got specialist batsman, specialist bowlers, a wicket-keeper, and then you’ve got the all-rounders who can do both really well, but sometimes tend to be either slightly better batsmen or slightly better bowlers.
Specialist bowlers tend to not be that great bat batting (and some are really TERRIBLE batsman) and often play defensively while batting, but sometimes if the odds are against them they have a “bit of a slog” and try to hit the ball out of the park. The number 11 tends to be the worst batsman in the team, but sometimes they are put into the position where they have to perform heroics. For example even though the match was 36 years ago most NZer’s my age (which is old) still fondly remember Ewen Chatfield’s (our most celebrated number 11) and Jeremy Coney’s last wicket stand to beat Pakistan in 1985.
Absolutely, you can see this in the main way in which bowlers figures are reported. e.g. 5-40-22 (5 wickets taken, 40 runs scored off their bowling, 22 overs bowled)
Just reporting the wickets taken doesn’t begin to tell the story. The other elements have to be given to understand the wider context of their performance and, as you allude to, indicate if this was a defensive or attacking innings by them.
5-250-30 is not necessarily a good performance, 0-25-32 is not necessarily a bad one.
There have been pitchers who could hit; it’s just unusual. The skill of pitching is so critically important that through natural selection, pitchers are selected purely for pitching skill and their being good hitters is almost an accident, much the same way you could not expect a great flanker for the All Blacks to be a PGA-quality golfer, or for Michael Phelps to be a great soccer player. No professional baseball team will give an inch on a pitcher’s pitching ability to get hitting ability. A pitcher having a bad day loses the game for you. The difference can be literally three or four bad pitches out of 150 your team throws that day.
This isn’t permissible at any other position, even the very defense-important ones. You can be a light hitter if you play a great shortstop or catcher, but not pitcher-bad.
Of the greatest pitchers of all time, NONE were even average hitters and most were indescribably bad. Walter Johnson and Bob Gibson didn’t humiliate themselves when hitting by any means, but by overall standards they were still bad.
That’s a distinction without a difference, IMO. If there can be so many glamourous GKs or CBs then there is something in the position itself that can be glamourous. I would argue that starting CB may not be as glamourous as Center Forward or Attacking Central Midfield (a #10), but it’s right there behind them.
Baseball - shortstop
Baseball - center fielder w/ blazing speed
Basketball - “rim protector” center
Football - shutdown cornerback
Football - dominant DE
Soccer - top goalkeepers
). Steve Young’s 49ers were looming large in future years. Then they acquired one of the best edge rushers ever, Charles Haley, from the 49ers and the rest is history. There was a bit of bad luck in the 1994 NFC championship game, but my guess is that without Haley, having Troy Aikman, Emmitt Smith, Michael Irvin, Jay Novacek, the dominant offensive line that they had, and so on wouldn’t have mattered. They would probably not have made, much less won, any Super Bowls with Haley still playing for the 49ers.