You’re right, there is something very conservative/capitalist about the messages in Pixar movies/shorts. Of course you have to consider the era they are coming from, the 1980s-today ie the decades of greed.
Oh yeah, those would be exceptions. I also like Brave Little Toaster and Black Cauldron in their own creepy gothic 80s kind of way.
What, no love for Speed Buggy?
I really like Brave Little Toaster, although I wouldn’t count it as a Disney film, even though it has Disney links.
Wall-E had a distinctly anti-capitalist message. Ditto Toy Story II. Up, too. Incredibles doesn’t end too well for the corporate type…
Me, I’m firmly in the Pixar camp, and it’s for marshmallow’s 4th reason - I fucking hate musicals.
Personally, I’d probably rate The Incredibles as the best animated movie ever. Yeah, Disney had a lot of classics, and Snow White and Cinderella and their ilk were good, but they’re mostly classics by virtue of their age. Put them up against a full stable of competitors, and they don’t hold up as well as their reputations suggest.
I wouldn’t even put The Incredibles in my top 3 Pixar movies. Best animate movie I’ve ever seen is Princess Mononoke. Not remotely appropriate for the under-10 crowd, full of terrifying violence, but the story is complex, and the politics more so: what seems initially like a pastoral, anti-industrial screed quickly gets subverted.
Friend, did you ever even see some of the stuff they ran on the Disney Channel in the 80s? The Brave Little Toaster and Return to Oz alone will fill your death and mutilation quota, real quick.
And I loved 'em.
Nope, missed that stuff. But I’ve seen other violent animation. My point about Mononoke isn’t that it’s good because it’s violent, though. It’s good because it’s awesome.
I’ll agree that Mononoke is definitely a strong contender for best, and on a different day, or in a different mood, I might give it the title. But I certainly haven’t seen any Disney that I’d rate higher than The Incredibles.
And you’re the only other person besides myself I’ve met who considered Mononoke the best of the Ghibli movies.
I liked Brad Bird’s Iron Giant more than his Incredibles. For one it didn’t mangle its own message. Hogarth isn’t better than his peers because of genes, but because he takes education seriously.
Remy likewise, but Ratatouille isn’t handrawn. 
Mononoke is my favorite of the Ghibli movies. But it would be difficult to argue that Grave of the Fireflies isn’t their best.
I’ve not seen Grave of the Fireflies. Some day I might be in exactly the right mood for me to watch it, but it’s been about twenty years since I heard of it, and that day hasn’t come yet. I’m happy trusting others that it’s a brilliant movie.
Also, my takeaway is that I need to rewatch The Incredibles. Maybe my six-year-old will watch it with me.
Well I mean no one goes to watch Schindler’s List because it’ll be a great popcorn thrill-ride. You just watch it because every once in a while you need to do the things you should do.
If one could create some sort of rating system that took into account quality of animation, story-telling, pacing, characterization, voice talent, music…and adjust for generational differences (in general, 1930s movies are a whole different animal from 1990’s movies): IMHO, the best of Disney Classic would rank neck-and-neck with the best of Pixar. Let’s say, Pinocchio and Toy Story 3, in a photo-finish.
As we descend into the 5-20 spots, they would be Pixar and Disney Renaissance (say, Incredibles and Little Mermaid)
But the bottom of the list would be full of 1970’s Disney dreck.
I’ll second that motion. But I will put the early Disney above Pixar. At least to me there seems something more artistic, more finished and human, to the earlier stuff.
I agree. I think the 90s Disney deserves credit where it’s due too, and a few later ones like Emperor’s New Groove, Tangled, and Lilo and Stitch.
Another vote for Mononoke, but then my next two favorites are Pom Poko and Porco Rosso, so a little off the mainstream.
I have to rate the best Pixar films above any other animated films on several fronts:
Emotional power:
When Someone Loved Me from Toy Story 2, and Joan Cusack’s brilliant voice acting as Jesse. After the montage to the song, when Woody says “Jesse…I didn’t know” Jesse’s reply of “Just go” gives me a lump in my throat.
In the same way, When Mr. Incredible thinks his family has been killed, and asks Syndrome “What more can you do to me?” That is not just good acting for an animated film, it’s great acting period.
But they can break your heart without a word, like the montage of the life of the couple in Up.
One other thing: I’m a snob about animation. And no, not one single piece of anime qualifies as good animation. Their inability to learn how to use a simple dope sheet to animate to spoken words ruins the entire category. Come on! People have been doing this since Steamboat Willie! I saw Spirited Away in both English and Japanese and they didn’t have lip sync in either language! People who praise anime without acknowledging this flaw have little credibility. I really think there are people growing up with anime who have never seen any classic animation, or have so assimilated the bizarre aspects of the style that they think everything should look like that - insanely low frame rates, limited walk cycles, bizarre mouth positions, etc.
It’s a different aesthetic, not a worse one. A proponent of anime could just as easily slam Western animation over the low quality or detail of the backgrounds.