# Is plagiarism that big a deal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 28, 2005, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077 "2005-01-28T08:07:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/181 "2005-02-03T06:55:05Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > People change. But as a young man, no, he was clearly not a person of integrity. Presumably you still count him as a young man when he completed his dissertation in 1954 (age 25). How about when he gave the “I Have A Dream” speech 9 years later? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 6:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/182 "2005-02-03T06:56:17Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > Okay, I’m cooled off. > > ``` > Just wondering if anyone else here has seen the film **Shattered Glass** , about the young journalist Steven Glass, who was caught making up stories for **The New Republic** magazine. He had been presenting them all along as factual, when he'd actually invented quite a few. When his trickery was uncovered, his editors were extremely upset with him. Why? Because he'd been lying to them and by extension to all of their readers. He was dishonest and had committed fraud. It wasn't plagiarism, since he wasn't stealing it from other sources. But it was in the same neighborhood of deception. People still don't fully trust him, and it's been several years since the story broke. > And I can't say I blame them, since they didn't appreciate being hoodwinked by a fellow who seemed so clever and wrote so well and garnered so much attention for his articles. It's too bad he didn't become a novelist a lot sooner, because if he wanted to write fiction in the first place, he should not have been working at that magazine. > > ``` > > * * * > > ``` > I'll just add (still cool) that I don't appreciate it when some students seem to think we profs are so damn stupid and harried that we wouldn't even notice that the paper they turned in wasn't their own work. That's the insulting part, in addition to all the other irritating factors. > My college won't pay for the service that I believe **spectrum** is using, but it hardly matters since a Google search reveals the stolen material every time. > > ``` Also colled off. I have seen the film and I agree with a lot of what you said to a certain extent. However, Mr. Glass is another level. Plus, I think cheating in school is very different than doing it in the professional world, just as it is different from cheating in a relationship, or on your taxes, etc. Some people feel comforatble doing one and not the others, and being a liar in one area does not mean you will lie in another. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/183 "2005-02-03T06:57:42Z")
In high school, it matters because of class rank. In college, it matters because teachers tend to use curves. Why should they stop using curves in order to prevent cheaters from harming others? Better to root out and cast out the cheating trash. With digitally submitted papers why NOT check everyone against cheating sites? It’s easy, and it punishes the guilty. Win win all around. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/184 "2005-02-03T07:04:47Z")
More importantly, **spectrum** , how do you _know_ he changed? This thread is full of claims that someone who cheats in school can’t be trusted later in life. If MLK Jr. was such a bad person in college because he cheated, at what point did he become a good person? Or did he ever? What if he’d been as involved with the civil rights movement when he was in school as he was later in life… would you still call him a bad person at that time? ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/185 "2005-02-03T07:12:43Z")
Perhaps he was never a decent person. But the cause he spent the 1960s fighting for was just. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/186 "2005-02-03T07:13:46Z")
> [@Monstre](#): > > An example would be the case cited by **Nava** on page 1 – the professor who didn’t want to graduate him (her?), so as to keep him in the research group. I’ve seen this happen before, and it’s an abuse of power on the professor’s part. They need to be reported to a higher authority. Definitely, I should have reported them. Even if it didn’t fix things in that particular school and department, it might have caused enough of a rumble to make other people examine their own priorities. I do not consider that “their” cheating would ever justify mine. The closest I’ve ever come to cheating was in Latin class back in 10th grade: I would prepare these tiny, tiny, tiiiiny resumes of the stuff in tiny, tiny, tiiiiiiny pieces of paper - but didn’t even bring the piece of paper in to the exam. The work involved in preparing the stuff was enough to compensate for my lack of attention during lessons (Latin was the last class in the day, so I could see the sunset right behind the teacher’s head and just got sucked in by the pretty colors) and get me a Pass. And the one detail that pissed me off my rocket about their cheating was that _they expected me to steal from my own people._ That is, to cheat. You have to absolutely not know me, if you think you can blackmail me - or that I’m going to cheat on your say-so when I don’t do it on my own. +++++ I see several mentions to “having to learn things that you will never use in your job”. Well, I am a chemical engineer. Nothing to do with Latin, right? Wrong. I have found it useful when I have to use certain technical terms which are straight Latin. I have found it useful for the TOEFL, where a lot of the terms that English speakers would find hard are straight Latin (or Greek, I didn’t have Greek as a standalone class but we had to learn Greek roots in Spanish class). I have found it enormously useful for learning German: both Latin and German use “declinations”, where the ending of a noun tells you whether it’s plural or singular and which function it fulfills within that particular sentence. Since I already knew how they work, learning the specifics was just a little bit of memory: nothing new to understand. Other classes that don’t seem to be related to Chem Eng, some of them compulsory for Chem Eng students at my school: - typing - intro to microeconomics - history of music - electronics I haven’t “used” history of music profesionally, but it helps enjoy concerts 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 7:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/187 "2005-02-03T07:27:21Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > Perhaps he was never a decent person. I don’t think many people will buy into your definition of a good person, then. ---
**Author:** ![TonyF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9de053/32.png) [@TonyF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonyF)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 7:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/188 "2005-02-03T07:40:09Z")
Plagiarism is a big deal because it devalues education. There’s your answer. I’ll be happy to explain, though it’s pretty much self-evident. ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 9:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/189 "2005-02-03T09:14:57Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > The initial question was is it that big a deal? Or ot put it another way, why does it bother you so much? So, you’re essentially saying you want everybody to limit discussion to the above? Fine. But if that’s the case, you should as well. Because when you make a comment that does not stick to the above questions, like this… > [@](#): > > It aslo seems crazy to me that all these teachers go out of thier way to set up traps to get cheaters. **Whether its creating programs or paying a website to check for plagiarism, it seems like too much work for a typically minor infraction**. …then it’s unreasonable to expect people not to _respond_ to those comments, especially if they want to argue the other side, like this: > [@](#): > > from _spectrum_ > It takes less than a minute to submit a class worth of papers to the cheat detection system used at my university. And when your response to this is… > [@](#): > > from _brickbacon_ > “This adds nothing considering this thread was not about how long it takes to catch a cheater.” …it sounds like a lame attempt to avoid backing up your own assertions. Especially since you brought it up and made it a point of your argument. **But I’ll stick to those questions in the first quote if you will.** * * * > [@](#): > > The initial question was is it that big a deal? Personally, I think it’s a pretty big deal in education, because it works against the **purpose** of education. Which is… well… **to educate the student**. To some people it is a big deal. To some people it isn’t. To some people it’s a medium sized deal. There are all sorts of gradations of opinion in between. So this question really isn’t the relevant part. The relevant question would be the next one (“Why”). And if all you’re really looking for are answers to this question from different people – then isn’t this just a poll, and better suited for IMHO? (Put it in GD, and people are going to debate all the related aspects, as they have been doing for the last 4 pages). > [@](#): > > Or ot put it another way, why does it bother you so much? Why does it bother me? or why does it bother me “so much”? It sounds like there’s an implicit assumption of “MUCH” in the question, which is not the case for all people. On why it bothers **me** , there’s a “personal” aspect, and a “general” aspect. **Personal** In regards to how it affects me _personally_, plagiarism bothers me to a moderate extent, but less than it used to, and not so much as to lose sleep over it. The primary **reason** that it bothers me is that teaching is my job, and the growing amount of plagiarism **makes my job harder**. And having to deal with it **makes my job less enjoyable**. As I’ve said before, I consider my job to be teaching the material, helping students learn, setting up a learning enviornment that facilitates the process, AND accurately evaluating students’ progress. Plagiarism hinders my abilities to perform my job in a way that I feel I must. It becomes more difficult to accurately evaluate a student’s learning if they turned in plagiarized work – it does not indicate what that student knows, other than “Copy/Paste”. The part of my job I find most enjoyable is helping students reach new levels of understanding, seeing that light in their eyes as they break through barriers that were holding them back, hearing about their progress after my class (both in other classes or in their future jobs). Dealing with plagiarism cases takes some of the enjoyment out of teaching, because it involves dealing with people who apparently have no desire to learn or understand. It is tiresome listening to students make excuses or just downright lie about their work. It is an extra hassle that I’d rather not have to waste energy on. One might ask, why bother dealing with it, then? Simple. It’s part of my job. And I intend to do it correctly. Why do I say, “Plagiarism bothers me moderately”, rather than “a whole huge giant whopping student-hating lot”? Because through evolution of my courses, I’ve found a pretty good way of dealing with it in a way that I think works, without having to expend tons of extra effort on my part. So it doesn’t bother me as much as it used to – because now I feel pretty confident that students cheating on assignments in my class will fail on their own, whether I specifically catch those instances or not. But that’s why plagiarism bothers me on a **personal** level. It makes my job more difficult and sucks some of the enjoyment out of it. **General** Plagiarism bothers me in a more “general” sense (i.e. in situations not specifically related to MY teaching, like your high school essay example) not so much with any feelings of anger, but rather with a feeling of sadness. It saddens me that many high school students, having plagiarized their way through, reach college with very poor reading/writing skills, and poor mathematical and problem solving skills. It saddens me that so many students get to college thinking that their degree is an entitlement, rather than something to be earned. Because something earned is much more valuable in the long run. Not the piece of paper, the diploma. But rather the feeling of worth that goes hand in hand with true achievement. It’s something to be proud of. Plagiarism is not something to be proud of. It saddens me to know that there is an obvious growing acceptance of plagiarism as a “means to an end”, as you stated in the OP. It saddens me that this results more and more in students cheating themselves out of an education. It saddens me that many such students are not incapable, they are simply preventing themselves from realizing their own potential. So as for your example of the high school student who plagiarizes on his assignments… I do not feel like he is the scum of the earth. People make mistakes, but they can choose to change. I do not consider him to be an evil and horrid person. Instead, I see him as short-sighted. I do not look upon him with anger, but rather with disappointment. And if he’s cheating himself out of an education… then I pity him. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/190 "2005-02-03T13:27:27Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > This adds nothing considering this thread was not about how long it takes to catch a cheater. False dichotomy. You specifically claimed that " But to take the time to turn in papers to cheating websites and the like is a little overboard in my opinion (as it the negative opinion many people have of cheaters)." **spectrum** ’s comment was in direct response to your statement. If his comment adds nothing, then neither does your remark to which he was responding. > [@](#): > > Turning in papers to a website may not take long at his university, but I know that it is often a long process at many other places. I see. So by your thinking, if it is a long process at other places, then you can safely generalize that teachers should NOT “turn in papers to cheating websites.” Good grief. Besides, I don’t think you’re in a position to dictate how these teachers should use their time. And so forth, and so on. Your alleged “reasons” for saying that **spectrum** has contributed nothing are abundantly transparent, and hold no water. Each and every one of his statements is relevant to the issue of whether plagiarism is a big deal or not. I have yet to see you refute the claim, for example, that cheating puts the honest students at a disadvantage. As **monstre** said, you apparently feel obligated to comment on these tangential matters yourself, yet are quick to cry holy terror when someone rebuts those same comments. That is a classic case of intellectual dishonesty. ---
**Author:** ![Brainiac4](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brainiac4/32/3534_2.png) [@Brainiac4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brainiac4)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/191 "2005-02-03T14:03:13Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > How does _this_ respect their rights: “If the student is in high school, on the other hand, then s/he is a minor and not qualified to make the decision.” It doesn’t. But I am not arguing that minors should have rights, and you are. Thus my statement is consistent with my position, and yours is (seemingly, unless you can explain) not. ---
**Author:** ![Brainiac4](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/brainiac4/32/3534_2.png) [@Brainiac4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Brainiac4)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/192 "2005-02-03T14:12:11Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Er, before I get jumped on for this:“All minors are qualified to do X” is no more accurate than “No minors are qualified to do X”. I meant to refute **Brainiac4** ’s generalization, not assert my own: being a minor (i.e. under age 18) does not automatically prevent anyone from knowing how he wants to spend his time. Indeed it does not prevent them from knowing how they want to spend their time. But that’s not my point. My point is that they’re not _qualified_ to make the decision, not that they don’t have a wealth of ideas on how to better spend their time. And yes, this does belong in a different thread. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/193 "2005-02-03T19:42:20Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Also colled off. > > I have seen the film and I agree with a lot of what you said to a certain extent. However, Mr. Glass is another level. Plus, I think cheating in school is very different than doing it in the professional world, just as it is different from cheating in a relationship, or on your taxes, etc. Some people feel comforatble doing one and not the others, and being a liar in one area does not mean you will lie in another. If Glass were here right now and told me it was clear and sunny today, I’d look outside just to double-check. He’s like the boy who cried wolf. Lying, cheating, and stealing can become very easy and even habitual for some people once they get used to it. I know a person who’s so full of crap that I no longer take anything she says to me at face value. As **Monstre** noted, students who insist on cheating only end up sabotaging themselves. And we do not “lay traps” for them. [Turnitin.com](http://Turnitin.com) is not only for our use; it’s also for students to use so they can check their work before they submit it. As I pointed out at least twice already, some of my students have done nothing but copy and paste, which means that all I have to do is type in one stolen sentence to the Google search box, and the link to the entire essay comes up. If they’d write their own papers, none of this would happen. I will reiterate (only once more) that they all receive a great deal of warnings, cautionary tales, true stories of consequences, handouts, lecture, and quizzes on plagiarism and other forms of academic dishonesty at the beginning of the semester. They also receive information on how to quote and cite properly so as to avoid plagiarizing even inadvertently (although I do understand that haste and carelessness occur, and I don’t report people just for a bit of occasional sloppiness). I wish I could save everyone from failing. But I can’t when they insist on taking another path. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/194 "2005-02-03T21:44:06Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > As **Monstre** noted, students who insist on cheating only end up sabotaging themselves. I think there’s some irony in the fact that there are usually only two ways for a student to make a zero on an assignment: either not do it at all, or get caught cheating or plagiarizing. A student whose only goal is to make a good grade on a paper is taking a big risk by plagiarizing. If their deception isn’t detected they may make a better grade than they would with their own work (or maybe not – I hear that a lot of papers available online are of poor quality), but they could wind up with zip. Setting aside all moral concerns, this seems like a bad move from a cost/benefit position. Even a very bad original paper isn’t going to be given a zero if it at least demonstrates some understanding of what the assignment was about. And a student who possesses no understanding of what the assignment was about isn’t going to be able to pick out a relevant paper to plagiarize anyway. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/195 "2005-02-04T01:48:07Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I think there’s some irony in the fact that there are usually only two ways for a student to make a zero on an assignment: either not do it at all, or get caught cheating or plagiarizing. Actually, this is my official policy. First day, I announce that in the past years I’ve failed only [y] students, all for plagiarizing or for not handing work. If I get original work that fulfills the minimum requirements of the assignments, however poorly, I will find some way to pass you in this course. (This year x=27 and y=44.) And every year, I get a few more y’s. Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/196 "2005-02-04T03:43:26Z")
> [@Brainiac4](#): > > It doesn’t. But I am not arguing that minors should have rights, and you are. Thus my statement is consistent with my position, and yours is (seemingly, unless you can explain) not. I did explain. Go back and read it again. You asked “Are you seriously suggesting that, in order to respect the rights of minors, we should excuse them from following the sets of rules that are set out to ensure fair play and equal protection?” And the answer is no, I am not suggesting that. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [February 4, 2005, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/197 "2005-02-04T05:06:00Z")
I’ve started a new thread: [Youth rights vs. mandatory education](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=5799810#post5799810). **Monstre** and **Brainiac4** , I’ve responded to your posts over there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077.md?page=9)