# Is plagiarism that big a deal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 28, 2005, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077 "2005-01-28T08:07:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/121 "2005-02-02T19:09:52Z")
> [@Monstre](#): > > Example: I taught a course on Object Oriented Design, and basic software engineering principles. It was for the Computer Science **majors**. These are students who are programmers, and many of whom intend to become software developers. They seriously disliked the material, and many didn’t feel it was useful to them. > > The reason they didn’t like it was because they had no **experience** in the realm of large scale software, and they don’t yet understand or appreciate the kinds of things that entails – the whole process. Their programming world has so far consisted of small programming assignments that many can just figure out in their head and code without any planning or process. Nobody is going to write a real life large software system or title that way. That’s a great example, since no one who hasn’t suffered from not doing it the right way will appreciate the need to do it the right way. As a similar example, in the assembly language class I TAed, the first program was a Pascal program to do some simple text formatting. Totally useless as a program, but the reason we gave it is that we killed the students for anything they did that was non-structured. We figured that they’d never write reasonable assembly code without really understanding structured programming. We didn’t tell them that we threw out the grade - only fair and it let us be ruthless. Anyone copying code from the program because they thought it was pointless was losing out on a valuable learning experience, one that they had not enough maturity as programmers to appreciate. Side question: 20 years ago my CS professor friends dreaded getting students who programmed in Basic in high school, since they thought they knew everything. Are you still getting people like that, or doesn’t anyone actually program anymore? ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/122 "2005-02-02T19:49:56Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > Side question: 20 years ago my CS professor friends dreaded getting students who programmed in Basic in high school, since they thought they knew everything. Are you still getting people like that, or doesn’t anyone actually program anymore? Well, very few of my students have used any Basic before. Although I do sometimes get a few know-it-all types that had some programming in high school, either courses or self-taught. Some adjust well to object-oriented programming, some have to be broken of bad habits (like a guy wanting to use “memcpy()” to copy arrays of objects of any type (resulting in shallow copy only)). And some are the type that raise their hand in lecture every other sentence, trying to pull things off-topic and show off their programming background. For the most part, my CS majors enjoy learning C++ programming, though, and tend to appreciate the course. It’s the design and analysis course they don’t like (they get excited about coding, and then that course involves more process, not just coding). It’s the non-majors C++ course that’s a really mixed bag (some of them don’t **want** to know anything). ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/123 "2005-02-02T20:01:26Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > They aren’t bad people with no integrity, they are lazy. Lazy people are bad people. I would no more want to work with some lazy worthless jerk than with someone who is incapable. A person who cheats, who passes off the work of another as their own work, who puts their name atop someone else’s essay and hands it in and accepts the grade, has absolutely no integrity. They deserve expulsion, no question. I wouldn’t hesitate, were I a professor, to turn in a student whom I caught plagiarizing. Hell, as student, I wouldn’t hesitate to turn in another student. Let the bastards burn. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/124 "2005-02-02T20:26:43Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Or, especially for mandatory courses, it shows that the student doesn’t care about the point of the class, even if he understands what it is. Then he should fail. If he doesn’t care enough to do the work, he should fail. He should simply not do the paper, and fail. That’s the grade he deserves. Why should he get a grade he doesn’t deserve? Why should my comparative GPA with his be harmed because he has absolutely no integrity? Cheaters are trash, and should be treated as such. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/125 "2005-02-02T21:13:10Z")
I’m with you, **spectrum**. If students choose to ignore my repeated warnings, handouts, info, quizzes, cautionary tales, etc.–all of which I give during the first week of the semester–then they deserve whatever happens to them if they plagiarize. It’s their own damn fault if they wind up getting suspended for a year–which has happened already to at least two of my students and to God knows how many others. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/126 "2005-02-02T23:19:23Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > Lazy people are bad people. I would no more want to work with some lazy worthless jerk than with someone who is incapable. > > A person who cheats, who passes off the work of another as their own work, who puts their name atop someone else’s essay and hands it in and accepts the grade, has absolutely no integrity. They deserve expulsion, no question. > > I wouldn’t hesitate, were I a professor, to turn in a student whom I caught plagiarizing. Hell, as student, I wouldn’t hesitate to turn in another student. Let the bastards burn. You’re a hater. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/127 "2005-02-02T23:25:00Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > You’re a hater. If “a hater” means I expect people to either do their own work or take a failing grade, then I will gladly be a hater. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 2, 2005, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/128 "2005-02-02T23:52:55Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > You’re a hater. I never understood this. When did it become _bad_ to treat someone who has bad socialization as if he had bad socialization. Whether it’s “playa haters” or “cheater haters”, I consider the quality of “hater” in that context to be a virtue, not a drawback. I disapprove of the cheaters’ attempts to get ahead without earning anything. I disapprove of the “playa”'s attempts to keep multiple women on tap while making sure he has his pick whenever he feels like it. If that’s being a “hater”…GOOD! ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/129 "2005-02-03T00:15:34Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I never understood this. When did it become _bad_ to treat someone who has bad socialization as if he had bad socialization. Whether it’s “playa haters” or “cheater haters”, I consider the quality of “hater” in that context to be a virtue, not a drawback. I disapprove of the cheaters’ attempts to get ahead without earning anything. I disapprove of the “playa”'s attempts to keep multiple women on tap while making sure he has his pick whenever he feels like it. If that’s being a “hater”…GOOD! Maybe you misunderstand what being a hater is. It’s being a snitch and/or putting your nose in other people’s business that doesn’t concern you. A person who turns in a serious criminal isn’t a hater. It’s when a person goes out of thier way to corcern themselves with minor issues. If you were at work reading the SDMB, and your co-worker told the boss you were slacking off, even though you consistantly get your work done, he would be a hater. If you turn in your neighbor for stealing cable or downloading a movie, then you are a hater. It is basic respect. Stay out of other people’s business when it doesn’t concern you. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/130 "2005-02-03T00:20:54Z")
When someone cheats in a class that I am in, or that I am teaching, it DOES concern me. They are screwing up the curve for the deserving students. They are worthless scum who deserve to be punished for making it that much harder for people like me, who actually do what we’re supposed to do, to get the grades we deserve. And if they’re in one of the classes I TA in (or next fall in one of the little survey classes the overworked department might have me teach), they are disrespecting me (and the professor) directly, and deserve to be so punished. Don’t want to be turned in for cheating? Don’t cheat. The moment someone cheats, they lose any claim to the high ground. They deserve whatever they get. If I can help my position in a class by turning in a cheater, it would be most dangerous for you to be between me and the professor. I’ll bowl you over. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/131 "2005-02-03T00:22:20Z")
And no one deserves “basic respect” when they’re breaking the rules. No one has any right to get away with the bad things they do. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/132 "2005-02-03T00:24:11Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Maybe you misunderstand what being a hater is. It’s being a snitch and/or putting your nose in other people’s business that doesn’t concern you. A person who turns in a serious criminal isn’t a hater. It’s when a person goes out of thier way to corcern themselves with minor issues. If you were at work reading the SDMB, and your co-worker told the boss you were slacking off, even though you consistantly get your work done, he would be a hater. If you turn in your neighbor for stealing cable or downloading a movie, then you are a hater. It is basic respect. Stay out of other people’s business when it doesn’t concern you. Minor issues like character and ethics? Minor issues like grabbing a grade you don’t deserve (and in college, with curve grading, grades really are a zero-sum game)? Minor issues like treating your girlfriend(s) like interchangeable blowup dolls? Minor issues like the fact that watching someone do these things would make me have zero confidence or trust in their ability to either do actual work (if I were an employer) or have a healthy, loving relationship with a woman (f’rinstance, my hypothetical sister)? It amazes me that personal ethical concerns have become so unimportant to an entire generation that a phrase like “hater” in that context has become widespread. It saddens me, too. Actually, it frightens me, as well. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/133 "2005-02-03T00:31:08Z")
JayJay, don’t despair completely. I’m practically the same age as our ethics hata here. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/134 "2005-02-03T00:41:09Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > It’s being a snitch and/or putting your nose in other people’s business that doesn’t concern you. I like the military’s take on that sort of bullshit: [The Non-Toleration Clause: The Bedrock of the USMA Honor Code](http://www.usafa.af.mil/jscope/JSCOPE00/Starz00.html) > [@](#): > > All service academies have an Honor Code or Honor Concept that forbids lying, cheating, and stealing. However, through a fourth tenet, the United States Air Force Academy (USAFA) and the United States Military Academy (USMA) also mandate that their cadets do not tolerate such actions in others. If one truly believes in the value of the first three prohibitions, then one ought to believe that the rest of the members of their Academy ought to hold these standards as well. > The non-toleration clause asserts that, as professionals, we must enforce standards of ethical behavior in our fellow cadets. An Honor Code without this clause is ineffective because it puts the onus on the officers and staff to enforce the three prohibitions rather than on the cadets or midshipmen of the Academy. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/135 "2005-02-03T00:47:09Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > When someone cheats in a class that I am in, or that I am teaching, it DOES concern me. They are screwing up the curve for the deserving students. They are worthless scum who deserve to be punished for making it that much harder for people like me, who actually do what we’re supposed to do, to get the grades we deserve. And if they’re in one of the classes I TA in (or next fall in one of the little survey classes the overworked department might have me teach), they are disrespecting me (and the professor) directly, and deserve to be so punished. > > Don’t want to be turned in for cheating? Don’t cheat. The moment someone cheats, they lose any claim to the high ground. They deserve whatever they get. > > If I can help my position in a class by turning in a cheater, it would be most dangerous for you to be between me and the professor. I’ll bowl you over. I didn’t say you don’t have the right to be a hater. Just that you are. Deal with it. If you think cheating makes someone a wothless scum automatically, than you are hater pure and simple. God forbid anyone judge you as you judge others. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/136 "2005-02-03T00:52:40Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Minor issues like character and ethics? Minor issues like grabbing a grade you don’t deserve (and in college, with curve grading, grades really are a zero-sum game)? Minor issues like treating your girlfriend(s) like interchangeable blowup dolls? Minor issues like the fact that watching someone do these things would make me have zero confidence or trust in their ability to either do actual work (if I were an employer) or have a healthy, loving relationship with a woman (f’rinstance, my hypothetical sister)? > > It amazes me that personal ethical concerns have become so unimportant to an entire generation that a phrase like “hater” in that context has become widespread. It saddens me, too. Actually, it frightens me, as well. Not all classes have curve grading. At no point in this thread did I make the claim that all cheating/plagiarism was OK or equal. I don’t know what the rest of that is about (blowup dolls, etc.). ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/137 "2005-02-03T01:04:16Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > JayJay, don’t despair completely. I’m practically the same age as our ethics hata here. Except that you are, in fact, a hater of the worst kind. You seem to be the kind of guy who thinks bad action always equals bad person. That is usually not the case. Almost everybody has done something bad in their lives. I don’t think it makes them bad people, just flawed (like you or anyone else). The world isn’t as black and white as you make it seem. If you truly think cheating, stealing, having a bad temper, doing drugs, etc. always means the person is worthless, then you are hopeless. You seem to think its your job/responsiblity to police the world and point out everyone’s flaws and to tell on them so that they get the spanking they deserve. If you think that is somehow honorable, I don’t know if I can convince you otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/138 "2005-02-03T01:18:07Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > . > > You seem to think its your job/responsiblity to police the world and point out everyone’s flaws and to tell on them so that they get the spanking they deserve. Okay, take a break for a moment from berating your peers, and explain to me and to **Monstre** and \*\*VivaLostWages \*\* and some others whose jobs and responsibility it IS to police our classrooms, if not the world, how holding our students to the ethical level we announce will be upheld on day one of our courses is also sticking our noses officiously into other people’s business. We can’t be any clearer, can we, about what our policies will be, so why do plagiarists insist on taking our courses anyway, and then feel entitled to whine (after they get caught) about the system they agreed to abide by. How is that behavior you respect? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/139 "2005-02-03T01:47:30Z")
> [@pseudotriton ruber ruber](#): > > Okay, take a break for a moment from berating your peers, and explain to me and to **Monstre** and \*\*VivaLostWages \*\* and some others whose jobs and responsibility it IS to police our classrooms, if not the world, how holding our students to the ethical level we announce will be upheld on day one of our courses is also sticking our noses officiously into other people’s business. We can’t be any clearer, can we, about what our policies will be, so why do plagiarists insist on taking our courses anyway, and then feel entitled to whine (after they get caught) about the system they agreed to abide by. How is that behavior you respect? If it sounding like I was berating them then I apologize. It bothers me when I encounter attitudes like that. But that has little to do with the topic of this thread. Of course _everyone_ has a responsibility to help maintain order. My problem is when the effort doesn’t match the infraction. I don’t think most instances of cheating should result in expulsion. I also don’t think the cheater automatically has “no integirty” or is “worthless”. Plus, much of the anger toward cheating/dishonestly is not really about that. How many of these same people believe MLK Jr., Einstein, etc. have no integrity? Suddenly their black and white attitude becomes nuanced. My basic message to the teachers in this thread is that you shouldn’t allow the dishonesty of some to change the way you teach. Sure, reasonable measures should be taken, but at what point does it become the equivelent of taking your shoes off at the airport? I hope that answers your question. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/140 "2005-02-03T02:00:48Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > My basic message to the teachers in this thread is that you shouldn’t allow the dishonesty of some to change the way you teach. That’s not quite true. You’ve also suggested that students who encounter cheaters should ignore the infractions as ‘none of their business’. How do you think cheating be detected, and dealt with? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077.md?page=8)