# Is plagiarism that big a deal? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 28, 2005, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077 "2005-01-28T08:07:36Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/161 "2005-02-03T05:28:26Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > How is “hater” not correct English? Your usage is pathetic slang. ---
**Author:** ![Monstre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@Monstre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monstre)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/162 "2005-02-03T05:29:07Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > It is a lot of effort if the papers have to be scanned, and if you have dozens of them. Not to mention the money it costs to access some of these sites. If they have to be scanned, then yes, you have a point – it’s a lot of extra effort. If the papers are in an electronic format already, then it’s probably a more reasonable measure. I honestly don’t know how much those sites cost, because my classes don’t have term papers – just programming assignments. If the money to use has to be paid by the teacher, then I would not think it worth using – not fair to the instructor to absorb such a cost. If the school is already subscribing (and paying) for access for their teachers, then it becomes more reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/163 "2005-02-03T05:34:09Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > Not all bad actions. But cheating is lying – real lying, not white lies – and that indicates a complete lack of integrity. Good people do not take credit for work they do not do. Period. End of fucking sentence. I do my own work. I deserve to be higher in my class than the trash who cheat. Hell, they don’t even deserve to be in class with me and the real students. They’re loafers and parasites. This case is. You’re in class to be measured on your ability to do the work. You either do the work, or you take the failing grade. **You are arguing that people – cheaters – are entitled to grades they did not earn. That’s bullshit.** As a graduate student in political science and a teaching assistant, policing for cheaters is my job. I’ve not caught any. So far. Show me where I say cheaters are entitled to grades they did not earn? Either you aren’t reading carefully or you are intentionally dishonest. So are the number of people who have ever cheated, past and present, all “not good people”. If you really feel this way then we just have to agree to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/164 "2005-02-03T05:35:55Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > Your usage is pathetic slang. and your opinion is pathetic and irrational. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/165 "2005-02-03T05:43:22Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Show me where I say cheaters are entitled to grades they did not earn? You don’t say that directly. But were one to follow your insipid less-vigilance, “nonjudgemental” bullshit, that’s what would happen: more cheaters would be rewarded for their lack of effort. In a nation that is supposed to be a meritocracy, that’s disgusting. Cheaters deserve to be caught, and punished as fully as is possible. Frankly, if someone were to cheat on a term paper, not only should they be expelled from college, there should be a national blacklist their name goes on for ten years to make it practically impossible for them to find a new school. That’s how serious cheating is – it is the gravest academic crime there is. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/166 "2005-02-03T05:47:14Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > Not all bad actions. But cheating is lying – real lying, not white lies – and that indicates a complete lack of integrity. Good people do not take credit for work they do not do. Period. End of fucking sentence. So in other words… Martin Luther King: Not a good person. Period. End of fucking sentence. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/167 "2005-02-03T05:56:15Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > You don’t say that directly. But were one to follow your insipid less-vigilance, “nonjudgemental” bullshit, that’s what would happen: more cheaters would be rewarded for their lack of effort. In a nation that is supposed to be a meritocracy, that’s disgusting. > > Cheaters deserve to be caught, and punished as fully as is possible. > > Frankly, if someone were to cheat on a term paper, not only should they be expelled from college, there should be a national blacklist their name goes on for ten years to make it practically impossible for them to find a new school. That’s how serious cheating is – it is the gravest academic crime there is. If you just want to be a combative idiot, then go start a thread in the pit. You are being deliberately dishonest and rude. You haven’t added anything of value to this thread so I would appreciate it if you would either change your tone, or go elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/168 "2005-02-03T05:58:35Z")
Quite the contrary. **spectrum** has contributed quite a number of objections which you have failed to deflect thus far. Has **spectrum** contributed anything of value? Most certainly so. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/169 "2005-02-03T05:58:44Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > If it sounding like I was berating them then I apologize. It bothers me when I encounter attitudes like that. But that has little to do with the topic of this thread. Of course _everyone_ has a responsibility to help maintain order. My problem is when the effort doesn’t match the infraction. I don’t think most instances of cheating should result in expulsion. I also don’t think the cheater automatically has “no integirty” or is “worthless”. Plus, much of the anger toward cheating/dishonestly is not really about that. How many of these same people believe MLK Jr., Einstein, etc. have no integrity? Suddenly their black and white attitude becomes nuanced. > > My basic message to the teachers in this thread is that you shouldn’t allow the dishonesty of some to change the way you teach. Sure, reasonable measures should be taken, but at what point does it become the equivelent of taking your shoes off at the airport? I hope that answers your question. Hell, I don’t even have to _try_ to find plagiarized papers. They make it incredibly easy for me by turning in things that are far beyond their proven abilities; said papers were lifted (copied and pasted–or worse, purchased) off of one or more Internet sites. I use the same damn Internet that they do. If they can find it online, so can I. And the suspension and other penalties outside of class are something I am not even involved with. Student Life Office takes over at that point and offers the offenders the chance to go to a Character Diversion Workshop so that what they did will not be divulged to third parties (i.e., a university or other school they hope to attend later). That’s for the first offense. Second offenders can still go to the workshop when and if they return from their one-year suspension. If they didn’t want this shit on their permanent records, then they shouldn’t have pulled it at all. It’s simple. They never complain about me or file grievances, because they know they’re in the wrong and all the physical evidence is against them. I never file reports without sufficient evidence. Don’t like the policies? Too bad. I didn’t make them up. I just follow them, and I happen to agree with them. If students are in a class that is too advanced for them, they should drop it. If they fall behind and can’t get work in on time without stealing it, they should take one of the many sessions offered for free on time and study management skills. If they are working too many hours or taking too many units to keep up with everything, then they need to step back and get some perspective. If they ask a friend or lover to write a paper for them and that person steals it, it’s still their fault for asking a proxy to do it in the first place. That’s all I’m going to say on the matter–for now. For fuck’s sake, how many ways do we have to explain ourselves? And why? ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/170 "2005-02-03T06:02:19Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Quite the contrary. **spectrum** has contributed quite a number of objections which you have failed to deflect thus far. Has **spectrum** contributed anything of value? Most certainly so. Such as? ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/171 "2005-02-03T06:03:39Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > If you just want to be a combative idiot, then go start a thread in the pit. You are being deliberately dishonest and rude. You haven’t added anything of value to this thread so I would appreciate it if you would either change your tone, or go elsewhere. :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/172 "2005-02-03T06:07:38Z")
Good grief, man. Have you been reading this thread at all? How about doing your own homework for a change? Just off the top of my head, I can say that **spectrum** has addressed the following: 1. The amount of time required to use a cheat detection system. By **spectrum** ’s account, this is extremely fast and efficient at his university. 2. The question you raised, regarding whether a bad action denotes a bad person. As **spectrum** pointed out, this doesn’t _necessarily_ follow, but cheating does nonetheless reflect a lack of integrity. 3. The effect that cheating has on the innocent. Cheating harms those students who decide to put in an honest day’s effort. I have yet to see you say anything to refute that claim. And so forth, and so on. If you still insist that **spectrum** has contributed nothing of substance to this discussion, I can only conclude that you have been reading another thread altogether. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 6:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/173 "2005-02-03T06:11:42Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > So in other words… Martin Luther King: Not a good person. Period. End of fucking sentence. People change. But as a young man, no, he was clearly not a person of integrity. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 6:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/174 "2005-02-03T06:12:30Z")
> [@vivalostwages](#): > > Hell, I don’t even have to _try_ to find plagiarized papers. They make it incredibly easy for me by turning in things that are far beyond their proven abilities; said papers were lifted (copied and pasted–or worse, purchased) off of one or more Internet sites. I use the same damn Internet that they do. If they can find it online, so can I. > > And the suspension and other penalties outside of class are something I am not even involved with. Student Life Office takes over at that point and offers the offenders the chance to go to a Character Diversion Workshop so that what they did will not be divulged to third parties (i.e., a university or other school they hope to attend later). That’s for the first offense. > > Second offenders can still go to the workshop when and if they return from their one-year suspension. If they didn’t want this shit on their permanent records, then they shouldn’t have pulled it at all. It’s simple. > > They never complain about me or file grievances, because they know they’re in the wrong and all the physical evidence is against them. I never file reports without sufficient evidence. > > Don’t like the policies? Too bad. I didn’t make them up. I just follow them, and I happen to agree with them. If students are in a class that is too advanced for them, they should drop it. If they fall behind and can’t get work in on time without stealing it, they should take one of the many sessions offered for free on time and study management skills. If they are working too many hours or taking too many units to keep up with everything, then they need to step back and get some perspective. If they ask a friend or lover to write a paper for them and that person steals it, it’s still their fault for asking a proxy to do it in the first place. > > That’s all I’m going to say on the matter–for now. For fuck’s sake, how many ways do we have to explain ourselves? And why? You don’t _have_ to explain yourself. All of this is voluntary. The initial question was is it that big a deal. Or ot put it another way, why does it bother you so much? Somehow this became a discussion on why people cheat and what kind of people they are. I understand that those issues might come up, but I would appreciate it if we could get back on topic. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/175 "2005-02-03T06:16:47Z")
This discussion IS on topic, **brickbacon**. The ethics of plagiarism are being discussed. The character and motivation of cheaters is part and parcel of that issue. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/176 "2005-02-03T06:16:50Z")
We’ve already explained why it bothers us. If that’s not good enough for you, well, I guess that’s just too damned bad. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 6:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/177 "2005-02-03T06:20:30Z")
It’s a big deal because every student receives more than a few warnings about it and what will happen if they commit it. If they can’t make it through a few essays and a research paper in my community college classes, how can they expect to make it through a university, unless they plan to cheat every day? They need to be able to write and do other work under their own steam rather than lazily pulling things off the Internet or paying someone else to do the work that they should be doing themselves. Ultimately, they cheat themselves in many ways, not to mention that they commit fraud and intellectual theft at the same time. Our universities and colleges have strict policies against this for good reasons. It also upsets me because it has gotten so rampant, and students are saying “Everyone’s doing it” (which is not true, because the majority of students are doing their own original work). It bothers me because it never even occurred to me to cheat myself out of learning, or to try to snow one of my instructors, or to risk the consequences. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 6:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/178 "2005-02-03T06:25:49Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > If you just want to be a combative idiot, then go start a thread in the pit. Which is where **you** should have put this. Do not call people names in **GD**. **Everyone** , I realize that it is frustrating when one’s opponent simply does not seem to understand, but _everyone_ needs to cool off. If it seems that your point is being deliberately ignored or misconstrued, think of a new way to present it or take it to the **Pit**. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/179 "2005-02-03T06:32:02Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Good grief, man. Have you been reading this thread at all? How about doing your own homework for a change? > > Just off the top of my head, I can say that **spectrum** has addressed the following: > > 1. The amount of time required to use a cheat detection system. By **spectrum** ’s account, this is extremely fast and efficient at his university. This adds nothing considering this thread was not about how long it takes to catch a cheater. Turning in papers to a website may not take long at his university, but I know that it is often a long process at many other places. Many people in my family are in education. > [@JThunder](#): > > 1. The question you raised, regarding whether a bad action denotes a bad person. As **spectrum** pointed out, this doesn’t _necessarily_ follow, but cheating does nonetheless reflect a lack of integrity. The question was asked in order to gain a full understanding of the claims certain people were making. I never contended that it follows that bad action=bad person. I think it has been clear that I don’t think it does. The people I directed the question towards had made absolute statements that implied that. His addition didn’t add much there either. > [@JThunder](#): > > 1. The effect that cheating has on the innocent. Cheating harms those students who decide to put in an honest day’s effort. I have yet to see you say anything to refute that claim. He made the claim, its his duty to put forth a logical argument of why it’s true in an absolute sense. I don’t think he has done that. Just saying it doesn’t make it true. Clearly, there are situations in which innocent people are hurt, such as when the class has a curve. But that is why I specifically worded many of my responses so that everybody realizes that I dont think all cheating is created equal and that I am talking about specific types of cheating (which I think are realtively harmless, yet are treated as major infractions). > [@JThunder](#): > > And so forth, and so on. If you still insist that **spectrum** has contributed nothing of substance to this discussion, I can only conclude that you have been reading another thread altogether. He has said nothing that hasn’t been said before, plus he has been rude and combative. ---
**Author:** ![vivalostwages](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d07c76/32.png) [@vivalostwages](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vivalostwages)\ **Post date:** [February 3, 2005, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077/180 "2005-02-03T06:35:00Z")
Okay, I’m cooled off. ``` Just wondering if anyone else here has seen the film **Shattered Glass** , about the young journalist Steven Glass, who was caught making up stories for **The New Republic** magazine. He had been presenting them all along as factual, when he'd actually invented quite a few. When his trickery was uncovered, his editors were extremely upset with him. Why? Because he'd been lying to them and by extension to all of their readers. He was dishonest and had committed fraud. It wasn't plagiarism, since he wasn't stealing it from other sources. But it was in the same neighborhood of deception. People still don't fully trust him, and it's been several years since the story broke. And I can't say I blame them, since they didn't appreciate being hoodwinked by a fellow who seemed so clever and wrote so well and garnered so much attention for his articles. It's too bad he didn't become a novelist a lot sooner, because if he wanted to write fiction in the first place, he should not have been working at that magazine. ``` * * * ``` I'll just add (still cool) that I don't appreciate it when some students seem to think we profs are so damn stupid and harried that we wouldn't even notice that the paper they turned in wasn't their own work. That's the insulting part, in addition to all the other irritating factors. My college won't pay for the service that I believe **spectrum** is using, but it hardly matters since a Google search reveals the stolen material every time. ``` [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-plagiarism-that-big-a-deal/287077.md?page=10)