I’m 28 so I guess I fit into your definition of the same generation. In general I’ve found that people who make it a habit to cheat or lie about insignificant things are going to do the same about more important things.
Marc
If it’s so insiginfcant, why not just do the work?
Your family has seen this attitude in younger students. What do they think about it?
Sorry, I must have erased part of that response. He is the short version: He is the main one being helped. I disagree with your statement. Plus, most schools would be helped in the same way they are by grade inflation. But I’m sure you hate grade inflation too.
I get the difference. But I don’t know how people like you who draw a conclusion that kid who cheats on test = liar. To me that is just as crazy. Is Martin Luther King a liar and fraud? Is Shakespeare a liar and fraud? I don’t think cheating makes you an evil person. I not arguing that it is the right thing to do, just that too many people view it as the worse thing you can do at an educational institution. Sure, you should fail the assignment, but expulsion seems nuts.
I doubt most people who read Macbeth actually “learned” anything. Most people commit these things to memory temporarily. Things like that aren’t important in and of themselves. I agree with the first part though.
First off, I don’t cheat. I’m tired of hearing thinly veiled accusation of cheating. Second, I think most people give sucessful cheaters a pass (King Jr., Shakespeare, Einstein) because they weigh it against the value of the works they produced (whether of not it was "stolen). Everyone claims to hate lying/cheating, but it becomes another matter if they like the person. Most politicians incluiding, Bill Clinton, George Bush, and John McCain have all lied on many occasions. How many people would say all of them have no integrity, etc. To me, it’s something I wish people wouldn’t do, but it’s not the horrible thing many people view it as. The thing that concerns me is that people say these people are liars just because they failed to credit the original authors and/or cheated. I just think it’s that serious.
You are incorrect to say that we ought to castigate Shakespeare for copying work. In his day, it was expected and routine that writers would lift plots and devices from one another; the classic stories had proven worth, and were reused constantly, while original work wasn’t as important. Our ideas about literary originality have evolved over time. Nowadays, you can’t get away with it.
We admire MLK because of his enormous accomplishments, and despite his flaws. It would have been a lot better if he hadn’t done certain things, but he was human. Still, I doubt anyone says, “oh, he copied some lines, but that’s OK, 'cause he was neat.” No, they say, “It’s too bad he sullied his character that way; it leaves a blot on his memory.”
Cheating high school students can’t really claim that their deeds are as historically important as MLK and Einstein; all they can say is that they’re lazy, dishonest, and can’t think straight, which isn’t exactly a great endorsement of character. They’re in school to learn certain things, and they’re avoiding that task–so they don’t deserve the grades or the diplomas. School is an opportunity, and cheaters waste their own time and minds, and the teachers’ as well, not to mention all the other efforts that go into ensuring a decent education for a nation’s children. We have now unprecedented and virtually unlimited opportunities to learn more than any other generation has ever had, and it’s being utterly wasted on some people.
The honor policy at my schools was that you promised not to cheat. Anyone who did cheat was breaking an oath. The general term liar covers oath breakers as well as those who bear false witness against others.
That’s absurd. Because you don’t write an essay in high school, you will never be fully engaged with the world? Plus, you make the assumption that people who cheat never learn how to do they things they neglected to do. I think of two people when I think of cheating. One of my good friends, who graduated with honors form NYU, and the valedictorian from my high school (who went to UPenn). Both were cheaters, both could have done the work, both are very smart and driven, but both didn’t see any value in writing an essay that means nothing to them. So they pieced parts of other people’s essays together and handed it in. Both of them did this in college too. They aren’t bad people with no integrity, they are lazy.
They obviosly aren’t the average cheaters, but I think the general point remains.
I sure you feel that way, but I think the truth and your perspective are very different. Dishonesty in one area does not portend dishonesty in another.
Mostly because they don’t want to. My family has varying views on this. My uncle (college prof.) is more laid back, so he doesn’t care that much. He would fail the person for that assignment, but probably wouldn’t do much else unless the kid was a jackass. My mom is more strict. She probably wouldn’t report it to the principal because it’s too much trouble, but she hates it, and goes out of her way to design the course to heavily weigh tests which are harder to cheat on. One of my aunts is a college administrator, so she hates it and is a hard ass about it. The other (college prof.) is like my uncle.
I’m not advocating we castigate Shakespeare. Again, why does everyone assume cheaters are not learning what they cheated on? I think the vast majority of these people are lazy procrastinators who feel they have better thinks to do. Doesn’t make them right, but it also doesn’t make them stupid.
I do have a question for you. Does MLK deserve his diplomas? If so, why?
Would you characterize a person who turns in someone elses work and calls it his own a liar?
You’ll get no arguement from me that expulsion on a first offense is nuts.
I wonder how many of the educators in your family would agree with that. What they learned from reading Macbeth was how to interpret and analyze the written word. I no longer use any math higher then simple Algebra but Calculus did help teach me to logically solve problems.
Why don’t you cheat if it isn’t a big deal?
I’m with you on the failing to credit original authors provided it’s an honest error. I’m not with you on the cheater thing. Obviously people do things wrong and one instance of cheating shouldn’t ruin an entire life. However if you show me a pattern of cheating and lying then I’m not going to trust you or take you very seriously.
Marc
No, if they had integrity, they would have gone to the teacher, said that they saw no value in writing the essays, and turned in nothing. They would have then gotten the grade they deserved, instead of a fraudulent one. People who do not write assigned essays for classes they signed up for do not deserve honors for it. If they wanted the grades, they should have worked for them.
I know very little about the circumstances of MLK’s lifting; I have only heard that it happened. If it happened for work in school, then he deserved failing grades for the classes he cheated in. If it happened later in life, then he has gotten what he deserved anyway; a blotted record of his life, and just that bit of lost respect from everyone who wishes they could regard him better.
When I spoke of not deserving diplomas, I was referring to habitual cheaters, of which there are many, who do not do all the work for most of their classes. I should have clarified that.
Interesting question. The person fits the definition, but I don’t know if they deserve all the baggage that comes along with it.
Most of them, depending on how they question was phrased.
Just cause I don’t think it’s prime evil doesn’t mean it isn’t wrong. I view it like marijuana. It’s against the rules, it’s bad to do, but I don’t think it makes you a bad person. Saying someone who plagiarizes has no integrity is like saying someone who smokes weed is a drug fiend. I just think it’s an overblown and undeserved indictment. To me, it’s just not that big a deal.
I wonder, by the way, about your friend the cheater valedictorian. If you were the salutorian, and had not cheated, how would you feel about him getting the honor you knew you really deserved? And, perhaps, the accompanying scholarships?
What if a class is being graded on a curve? A kid who cheats could wreck the curve for everyone else.
How can we tell if they learned it or not unless we see their work? Maybe they aren’t as clever as they think they are?
And what better things do they have to do? School is their work. They are no doubt being supported by their parents in school, not to play video games. Everyone is busy, has too much homework and too many assignments. Is it fair that they get to concentrate more on one class because they cheat in a second.
In real life people who cheat eventually get discovered, and lose their jobs and their reputations. Or they slack off, never get that promotion, are the first to get laid off, and then complain that the boss man is unfair to them.
When I TAed a computer science class, we wrote a program to detect copying. This was long before they became easily available. We didn’t kick cheaters out of the class, but they got an F and got watched. IIRC the copiers all eventually dropped the class, since they couldn’t really do the work, though no doubt they had convinced themselves they had better things to do.
My diploma is a valuable commodity that I can take to employers in order to gain money becuase it shows that I have the necessary knowledge to be an engineer. There are two things that hold the value of that diploma my GPA and the reputation of the school that issued the diploma. By cheating you cause my GPA to be lowered by gaining an unfair advantage in class. You have taken value away from my education in effect you have stolen money from me. If a large number of cheaters enter the workforce the reputation of that school will deminish greatly becuase these graduates do not have the necessary knowledge. You have further reduced the value of my diploma by cheating.
In short by cheating you are stealing from every other student at that university and every graduate of that university. And you ask whether thats a big deal? If I take a baseball bat and smash your new Dodge Viper I would imagine you would consider that a ‘Big Fucking Deal’ as I do with cheating.
For many of positions at my company, we require a minimum GPA to be considered for employment. Even for positions where we don’t have a minimum GPA, they are still taken into consideration when hiring recent graduates. I don’t think we’re the only company to do so. It’s important the grades reflect the candidate’s work–not the work of someone else.
Sure, someone who plagarizes may have the brain power to do the work and just be too lazy or unmotivated to do it themselves. However, we want people who aren’t lazy and who will do the work even when it’s not all that fun. There’s only so much you can learn about a person in a series of interviews (and references really don’t tell you much), so GPAs can help us determine which recent graduates are smart, motivated, and hard working among recent graduates.
I really don’t have a problem with expulsion for intentional plagarism (though I agree it’s too severe for something like messing up a citation). I’d hate to have a plagarism scandal at my alma mater. I’d worry that everyone who saw I went there would wonder whether my grades were really due to my own work.
Here’s the trouble though. Most of my thoughts on the topics of the essays assigned on the various English/Literature classes I’ve taken were neither lucid nor compelling because I found these classes to be mind-numbingly uninteresting. Also, if I’m presenting my own thoughts/opinions, I’m not going to make any citations, since I won’t be invoking any authority on the subject other than my own. The fact that I could find someone else’s essay that makes the same point, quote/paraphrase a bit and then cite it seems like a superfluous waste of time. It also seems like scholasticism. Just because I can find some other idiot who had the same idea doesn’t mean its a good idea… so why should I bother finding someone to agree with me- it proves nothing.
I think the thing that annoyed me most about those classes is that, even if I did have my own thoughts on the novel, the requirement to cite others became very limiting. If the dead white men have all decided that this is what the novel is about, you’d going to have trouble finding something about anything other than the “accepted” interpretation. While I’m more than happy to use my own authority to support my opinions, I wasn’t willing to use my authority to question the opinions of the dead white men. I’d be happy to ignore them, but citing the dead white men is part of the assignment. So, if I want to say something compelling, I have to work in a non sequitur from the dead white men, just to cite it, or re-write my papers in such a way that the opinions of the dead white men are relevant (though I find such a paper to be uninteresting, much like the opinions of the dead white men).
If you’re constructing a hypothesis/theory or building a case, I can see how citation works to reference pieces of evidence or provide context, but if we’re talking about interpretive essays, I don’t see the point. Why do I need to cite someone else’s opinion rather than (or in addition to) just stating my own?
In the colleges courses I teach, I can understand if someone accidentally forgot a few quotations marks here and there. I wouldn’t turn it in as a plagiarized report, especially if I already know the student’s abilities and previous performance.
What I have a problem with is a student that copies and pastes or purchases an entire essay off of a website, or portions of several websites so as to cobble them together into an essay. I warn everyone repeatedly that I use the same Internet they do, and that I can easily Google suspicious passages.
If they pull this crap once, they get an F on the assignment and it gets reported to the appropriate office. Then the student can attend a workshop (like traffic school) so as to keep the report from being seen by others later on.
If they pull it again, they get an F for the course, reported again, and usually suspended for an entire year. They can’t even come onto the campus, or they get arrested for trespassing. They still can go to the workshop when or if they come back, but I don’t know if they can get it off of their record.
These are the college policies and I have no problem with them. And I never report someone unless I can produce evidence that they stole the paper.
We consider it fraud, theft and dishonesty.
Actually, I’ve noticed it more among students who are attempting to take a class that is beyond their abilities. When they realize they can’t pass under their own steam, they get desperate. But that means they should have dropped the class in the first place.
We’re not focused only on grades here. We want to see if the students can genuinely improve over the course of a semester and if they are ready to go on.
If they cheat their way through community college, how will they handle university? Sooner or later they’ll get caught.
Okay, brickbacon let’s say both you and I are up for the same job. To decide between the two of us, the boss gives us a test assignment, typical of what we might be expected to do when working there.
Now, I work hard at the task, doing research, making sure I have everything correct.
You, on the other hand, pay someone to do your work for you-someone highly skilled at the type of job that’s at stake.
The boss looks at our completed work and gives YOU the job.
Now tell me that was justified.
Cheating will eventually screw someone over. A person who cheats his or her way through med school-and don’t tell me it couldn’t happen. You tell us that “oh, well, they’ll find out the incompetant morons can’t do the work!” Um, how are they supposed to find out who is incompetant and who is stupid if the person CHEATED to get there in the first place? They might find out-but it might be too late.
Your attitude is a little too Machiavellian for my tastes. And no, I’m not of the “older generation”-I’m only a few years older than you, dear.
Would you steal a car and claim it as your own?
Would you pay someone to steal a car for you?
Would you pay someone to steal a car for you that you want to sell to someone else?
Plagarism may not be grand theft auto but the intent is the same as you describe it. You are stealing something and claiming it as your own, and doing so in a false attempt to enhance yourself in the eyes of others.
OK brickbacon, let’s talk about something that really happened, just a few months ago, right here in my great state of Missouri.
Major donor pays the University $25 million for the naming rights to the new arena. He names it after his daughter, who never even attended that school.
Within days after the signs go up, it’s discovered that the daughter hired another student to write her papers throughout college.
Without being asked, major donor returns the naming rights to the University, which quickly renames the arena.
What’s your reaction?
a) The donor was a chump for giving the naming the naming rights back. After all, he paid $25 million, and if he wanted to put his daughter’s name on the building, so be it.
b) The donor was a classy guy, basically giving up $25 million with nothing in return, to save both himself and the University any embarassment.