# Is pledge anti-American? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2003, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808 "2003-05-17T01:04:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![blue22](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58f4c7/32.png) [@blue22](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blue22)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/1 "2003-05-17T01:04:33Z")
I find the pledge of allegiance somewhat disturbing, and even a bit fascist in thought. The concept of the pledge is to swear unwavering loyalty to the state, but that seems remarkably anti-American in a country where individual rights are supreme. The pledge also contains religious overtones, as believing in its symbolism requires a spiritual mindset. Thoughts? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/2 "2003-05-17T01:17:47Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blue22 \* > Thoughts? The P of A started out as a minor ritual for children to say on columbus Day, got overblown into something heavy-duty during WW2 and now is on the downside of its popularity arc. It’ll fade eventually, like many tradaitions have. I wouldn’t worry about it any more than I would worry about the return of bell-bottoms. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/3 "2003-05-17T01:29:25Z")
The Pledge is fascist and anti-American in nature. I agree it’s on a downswing in populairty, but i think it’ll be a long time before the fascist-colored conservatives will let it be dumped. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/4 "2003-05-17T01:33:24Z")
Well, in a Country where most 18 year can’t name the Vice President, it doesn’t hurt for them to at least be able to identify the flag. When I was young, I had teachers who explained the meaning of citizenship. If you don’t understand the meaning behind the flag then the words are empty and meaningless. As for religious overtones, it is a matter of perspective. The belief in a higher power is more than just a desire to cheat death. It is an acknowledgment of our failings and a need to improve. If the pledge said: “I pledge allegiance, under direct orders from Jesus” it would be dogmatic in nature… If you mean pledges are a form of belligerent nationalism, that would be dependent on how they are used. We do not pledge to a person, or a party, but to an ideal. Nazis, on the other hand, pledged themselves to Hitler and a party. Red Skelton made a presentation to kids years ago explaining the words. It may sound corny to the crowd on this board but it gives it enough meaning so kids can understand it. [http://www.rpu.com/tribute\_to\_%20red\_skelton.htm](http://www.rpu.com/tribute_to_%20red_skelton.htm) ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/5 "2003-05-17T01:36:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blue22 \* > \*\*The pledge also contains religious overtones, as believing in its symbolism requires a spiritual mindset. > > Thoughts? \*\* [This analysis](http://www.homeofheroes.com/hallofheroes/1st_floor/flag/1bfc_pledge.html) makes sense to me: > [@](#): > > Thus it is that when you Pledge Allegiance to the United States Flag, You: > \*Promise your loyalty to the Flag itself. > \*Promise your loyalty to your own and the other 49 States. > \*Promise your loyalty to the Government that unites us all, > Recognizing that we are ONE Nation under God, > That we can not or should not be divided or alone, > And understanding the right to Liberty and Justice belongs to ALL of us. This sounds OK to me. The last part describes American values – that every one of us has a right to Liberty and Justice. The allegiance is appropriate as a way to preserve a country that stands for these values. A look at other countries shows that liberty and justice ought not to be taken for granted. I don’t like the phrase “under God,” but one ought not to overdo the criticism. God is in the country’s traditions. E.g., the “Creator” is mentioned in the Declaration of Independence, which is obviously not anti-American or facistic. ---
**Author:** ![LolaCocaCola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7cd45c/32.png) [@LolaCocaCola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaCocaCola)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/6 "2003-05-17T01:37:55Z")
Welp, I had my US Citizenship interview this week. The next step will be my Oath Ceremony where I will pledge allegiance. I am a dual citizen of Australia. I am _really_ glad our nations are allies! ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/7 "2003-05-17T01:49:44Z")
LolaCocaCola, You got some need to see the toilet flush counter clockwise? A lot of innovative engines seem to come from the land down under. Hope you’re an engineer. Let us now when you think you’ve learned how to speak “Merican” fluently and we’ll give you a test. ---
**Author:** ![LolaCocaCola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7cd45c/32.png) [@LolaCocaCola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaCocaCola)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/8 "2003-05-17T01:53:54Z")
haha **Magiver**. I tell ya, while I was studying up on my US Government & History, I tested a few of my American born 'n bred friends, and guess what?!?!? Most of them knew less than I did! 😃 I think I shall recomend a few for deportin’. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![LolaCocaCola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7cd45c/32.png) [@LolaCocaCola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaCocaCola)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/9 "2003-05-17T01:55:37Z")
Recommend, even. Thank Gawd they didn’t test me on spelling! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Conflict\_of\_Interest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/57b2e6/32.png) [@Conflict\_of\_Interest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conflict_of_Interest)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/10 "2003-05-17T02:35:16Z")
A friend of mine from Africa was preparing for his citizenship test and had a copy of a sample test. I took the test and found it to be extreamly easy. I scored 97 out of 100 on it. I did guess on a few and got them right though. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/11 "2003-05-17T02:36:49Z")
Anyone who honestly thinks the PoA is fascist is well beyond reason, IMO. I cannot for the life of me see how “I pledge allegiance” equates to “\* swear unwavering loyalty to the state.” Pleeze. ---
**Author:** ![LolaCocaCola](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7cd45c/32.png) [@LolaCocaCola](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LolaCocaCola)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/12 "2003-05-17T02:36:50Z")
Pol Sci major, perchance, **Conflict of Interest**? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/13 "2003-05-17T02:46:32Z")
I think it is creepy making all the schoolkids mindlessly parrot their “allegiance”. It reminds me of when I was growing up and we saw pictures of Chinese schoolkids pledging allegiance to Chairman Mao. ---
**Author:** ![blue22](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58f4c7/32.png) [@blue22](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blue22)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/14 "2003-05-17T02:51:18Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by andros \* > I cannot for the life of me see how “I pledge allegiance” equates to " swear unwavering loyalty to the state."_ Well, I checked out the website Magiver recommended; Red Skelton’s definition of “I pledge alegiance” was: > [@](#): > > Dedicate all of my worldly goods to give without self-pity A slight change in diction, no?🙂 ---
**Author:** ![lander2k2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@lander2k2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lander2k2)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/15 "2003-05-17T02:59:00Z")
Is the pledge anti-American? It depends on what the P of A is pledgeing alegence to. If America has become a travesty of what America traditionally stands for, then yes. You follow? A pledge of allegiance is not inherently fascist IMHO. Fascists can use it to pervert the emotion of the populace, but well-meaning leaders can also use it to righteously bind a people in a time of trouble. I think the key is what allegience is being pledged _to_, not the pledge itself. Loyalty is a good thing, unless it is loyalty given to those who would use it to serve perverted ends. (Sorry, **Magiver**. Couldn’t find anything to shred.) ---
**Author:** ![blue22](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58f4c7/32.png) [@blue22](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blue22)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/16 "2003-05-17T03:00:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by december \* > **The last part describes American values – that every one of us has a right to Liberty and Justice. The allegiance is appropriate as a way to preserve a country that stands for these values.** > > Whoops, sorry! I had completely no idea that uttering 48 syllables while keeping your right hand on your heart is such an effective method in protecting the democratic ideals of this nation against those that threaten it. Pardon. > > **A look at other countries shows that liberty and justice ought not to be taken for granted.** Here we go with “America, the land of the free” dealy again. What is it that makes us believe that we’re the only country with political freedoms? Sure, we might have been the first to institute republican government, but (in case you haven’t been following recent events), quite a few other countries have assimilated the concepts of “liberty and justice” into their governments, too. ---
**Author:** ![urban1a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47c2d/32.png) [@urban1a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urban1a)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/17 "2003-05-17T03:03:26Z")
The ‘Pledge’ is now required in schools in Colorado (or will be next school year). Opponents, including myself, consider this to be legislated patriotism (sp?). It also may be leglistrated religion, due to the ‘Under god’ clause, which I would just as soon see left out. Incidentally, I have considered this questionable since the pledge was first changed in 1954. Bob ---
**Author:** ![urban1a](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e47c2d/32.png) [@urban1a](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/urban1a)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/18 "2003-05-17T03:05:23Z")
Legislated, even. ---
**Author:** ![lander2k2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@lander2k2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lander2k2)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/19 "2003-05-17T03:25:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by urban1z \* > \*\*The ‘Pledge’ is now required in schools in Colorado (or will be next school year). Opponents, including myself, consider this to be legislated patriotism (sp?). It also may be leglistrated religion, due to the ‘Under god’ clause, which I would just as soon see left out. Incidentally, I have considered this questionable since the pledge was first changed in 1954. > > Bob \*\* I must say that _requiring_ a child to pledge allegiance is deplorable. A child doesn’t get educated unless he/she pledges allegiance? Shit, the child doesn’t even understand properly what they’re pledging allegiance to! Allegiance is earned, not enforced. By the way, I agree on the ‘Under god’ clause. Loyalty to state has nothing to do with god. That clause seems to me to be invoking god in an attempt to assert unquestionable righteousness and validity. _That_ mentality is bad news. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/20 "2003-05-17T03:26:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by blue22 \* > \*\*Here we go with “America, the land of the free” dealy again. > > What is it that makes us believe that we’re the only country with political freedoms? Sure, we might have been the first to institute republican government \*\* Actually, the Romans beat you by over 2000 years. And that answers your first question. You believe incorrect things because you gots no edumacation. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808.md?page=2)