# Is pledge anti-American? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2003, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808 "2003-05-17T01:04:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/181 "2003-05-28T22:00:55Z")
> [@](#): > > I get your point – anything science says is unscientific is unscientific because science has replaced God. Eh? You complain of other people not understanding you (though you fail to support this assertion by pointing out where they are are wrong), and yet you think so boldly lying about other people’s position is “honest?” > [@](#): > > Scientists are the high priests of this generation. Well if it works for you, fine. I don’t think you even understand what “science” is, because it is radically different from any centralized system of authority such as a priesthood. > [@](#): > > I prefer to remain a free thinker, interested in proof. This is no proof in evolution or the bible creation story. **EVERYONE READ** I think the time has come, lekatt, for you to either admit that people HAVE presented you with proof, or for people to simply stop debating with you altogether. You may think the proof that has been offered is false, at which point you should explain WHY you think it’s false. But if you continue to simply refuse to even acknowledge that people have, indeed, presented proofs of evolution, then there is no point in ANYONE continuing this discussion. It would be no different than trying to have a long conversation with someone who has retrograde short-term memory amneisa: every few minutes you’re back to square one with no memory of what has been said before. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/182 "2003-05-28T22:37:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\* It would be no different than trying to have a long conversation with someone who has retrograde short-term memory amneisa: every few minutes you’re back to square one with no memory of what has been said before. \*\* That exactly describes my experience w/ him too. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/183 "2003-05-28T22:57:16Z")
I wouldn’t be too hard on **lekatt**. He grew up during World War II, which means he would’ve been exposed to enormous amounts of pro-war, pro-America propaganda at a very impressionable age. Unfortunately, in order for propaganda to have its full effect, it must be believed wholeheartedly at an emotional level and actively discorage the viewer to think about it. Seeing issues as the complex things they are rather than black-and-white right-vs.-wrong ideals detracts from their emotional power. The producers of American propaganda during World War II knew this, and would have manipulated their audiences in subtle and not-so-subtle ways to fall in with their line of thinking. This would be especially effective on small children who were just beginning to learn about the world at large. In short, **lekatt** has been brainwashed. It’s not his fault. It has become second-nature to him to react viscerally to any criticism of the “God and Country” ideal as though it were a personal attack on himself or the people he’s close to. Logic and facts can never win over such a person. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/184 "2003-05-28T23:00:07Z")
Oh – and since **lekatt** also served in the U.S. Navy, they would’ve drummed even more notions of patriotism into him during his Basic Training. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/185 "2003-05-28T23:12:19Z")
If you order the muster rolls, you will have to pay $34 for the microfilm. _However_, for the cost of a stamp, an envelope, and a few minute of your time, anyone who wishes can visit this site [archives.gov/facilities/mo/st\_louis/military\_personnel\_records](http://archives.gov/facilities/mo/st_louis/military_personnel_records/standard_form_180.html#ways) and fill out [Standard Form 180](http://archives.gov/facilities/mo/st_louis/military_personnel_records/standard_form_180.html#ways) print it out and send it to : \*\* National Personel Records Center (Military Personel Records) 9700 Page Ave St. Louis MO 63132-5100\*\* You will need this [info](http://ndeweb.com/Person.htm): Leroy Kattein Born in Tulsa, Oklahoma, September 14, 1937 If you have any doubt as to **Lekatt** ’s military service check it out for yourself. Love, simon ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 11:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/186 "2003-05-28T23:22:31Z")
Well I just be damned,\*\* Apos\*\*, I thought that you guys (meaning all posters who think like you) understood the limits of human understanding. If fact, as you all are able to summon up the courage to respond to deep thoughts, I would have thought that you realized that logic can only take us to small places. Apparently you don’t. Evolution, don’t you know, is a well designed process and maybe it is true as we thinking animals understand the nature of things, (by the way I understand evolution better than most of you guys on this board) 🙂 but those of us who really understand evolution and the nature of existence realize that we don’t. The call for “Proof” to anyone that has a working knowledge of our languages is a bull shitting tip. 🙂 Milum. ---
**Author:** ![frixxxx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/eb9ed0/32.png) [@frixxxx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/frixxxx)\ **Post date:** [May 28, 2003, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/187 "2003-05-28T23:30:41Z")
Pledge vs no Pledge In 200+ years, this country has tried to take people to their highest level possible by instituting rights that are inalienable. I was born in the USA (sorry Bruce) and these rights were bestowed to me. I never asked for all of them, but have just accepted them. Having rights is a painful thing. They have more responsibility than most people care to take on. For a country to come as far as they have this quickly is unequalled in history. I’ve said the pledge, I’ve taken an oath to the Constitution, I even had a little dity to recite in the Boy Scouts. I have never remembered taking a oath or saying a pledge to trounce and demean people and there rights. To say the U.S. is perfect is a mistake. Show me a perfect person and I’ll faint. If one person makes a mistake in the United States, we all pay for it. Yes there are cultural and physical barriers we all must overcome, but what if we started from the same point and that point WAS a pledge. As I use during my life especially with what I do, I always ask for people to come to me with a solution instead of just pointing out that there’s a problem. I’d like to hear what everyone thinks about this not the military service of a postee. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/188 "2003-05-29T00:08:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milum \* > \*\*(by the way I understand evolution better than most of you guys on this board) 🙂 \*\* \ Oh, really? ---
**Author:** ![Milum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@Milum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milum)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/189 "2003-05-29T01:28:12Z")
why yes son, wanna talk? ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/190 "2003-05-29T01:35:48Z")
[**C’mere**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=186755) ---
**Author:** ![MarlaDurden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@MarlaDurden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarlaDurden)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/191 "2003-05-29T01:51:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\*Oh, good grief. > > **MarlaDurden** , clearly your past 18 years has been undimmed by any hint of a civics class. > > If it had been, you would have learned that the First Amendment constrains the government in what it may prohibit. It does not prevent your fellow citizens from expressing their opinions of you, judging you on your opinions, looking down on you because of your opinions, ostracizing you because of your opinions, making fun of you because of your opinions, and refusing to even speak to you because of your opinions. > > In short, the First Amendment has precious little to do with preventing dirty looks and crude comments from others. Frankly, given your lack of understanding of the scope of the First Amendment’s protection, it’s entirely possible that if I were to see you, I’d shoot you a dirty look myself. > > - Rick \*\* Ahh, but still the first amendment entitles us to the basic freedoms, therefore I am entitled to my opinion. That is all I’m getting at. As for you, you can just go masturbate on your bible-photo of Jesus again tonight like you did last night, and the night before, and the night before. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/192 "2003-05-29T01:59:49Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Milum \* > **Well I just be damned,** Apos_\*, I thought that you guys (meaning all posters who think like you) understood the limits of human understanding. If fact, as you all are able to summon up the courage to respond to deep thoughts, I would have thought that you realized that logic can only take us to small places. Apparently you don’t. > > Evolution, don’t you know, is a well designed process and maybe it is true as we thinking animals understand the nature of things, (by the way I understand evolution better than most of you guys on this board) 🙂 but those of us who really understand evolution and the nature of existence realize that we don’t. > > The call for “Proof” to anyone that has a working knowledge of our languages is a bull shitting tip. 🙂 > > Milum. \*\* If you knew anything about evolution you would no that it’s not a “designed” process. Could you please enlighten us as to the source of your superior knowledge of evolution? maybe you should just post the website. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/193 "2003-05-29T02:06:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MarlaDurden \* > \*\*As for you, you can just go masturbate on your bible-photo of Jesus again tonight like you did last night, and the night before, and the night before. \*\* And the first amendment guarantees your right to do that too. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/194 "2003-05-29T12:17:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*This is BS. > I wrote to the National Archives and Records Administration in College Park MD in regards to the muster rolls from the USS Kenneth M. Willett (DE-354) > Jan 1, 1955 to Dec 31 1956 RL-1110 > Jan. 1, 1957 to Dec. 31, 1958 RL-1481 > > THERE WAS NO LEROY KATTEIN LISTED!:smack: > > Just like the New Orleans snowfall in July, and the NDE you had while you were sleeping, your USN adventure must’ve only happened in you personal experience. \*\* I was in the Navy eight years, what happened to the other five years. I think you are obsessed. I will wait until you play out your hand then show proof positive. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/195 "2003-05-29T12:25:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > \*\*You’ve missed quite a bit on this board, then, **lekatt** , if you think it’s nothing but "slanderous statements on everything spiritual. In point of fact, I’ve seen some very stirring and inspirational discussion of spirtuality and religion (which are two different things) by the likes of **Polycarp** , **Libertarian** , and others. These are respected and liked members of this board, and their contributions are unfailingly welcomed and encouraged. This is mostly due to the fact that they literally practice what they preach, and their posts are (for the most part) characterized by reason, tolerance, and consideration. They even move an old atheist like me. > > Which is the complete antithesis of your posts, **lekatt** , in this thread and in others. You say that your detractors “lack proof of their statements in all areas.” Once again, you are reading selectively, as proof has been offered over and over, which you consistently ignore. Where, pray, is the proof of _your_ assertions? I have yet to see anything convincing from you. > > The difference between you and other spiritual posters here, **lekatt** , is simple. Posters like **Polycarp** have dedicated themselves to fighting ignorance where they see it. You, on the other hand, are the ignorance they are fighting. > > You have managed, however, to make this debate about you rather than about the issue at hand… which I suspect may have been your intention all along. \*\* This is the strangest yet. I have made this debate about me? Everyone is responsible for their posts, Everyone is totally accountable for their own words and deeds. Now the skeptical posters have seen fit to attack me on every level, including the personal, and you say I have made this debate about me. That’s a little like saying the devil made me do it. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/196 "2003-05-29T12:31:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*Eh? You complain of other people not understanding you (though you fail to support this assertion by pointing out where they are are wrong), and yet you think so boldly lying about other people’s position is “honest?” > > I don’t think you even understand what “science” is, because it is radically different from any centralized system of authority such as a priesthood. > > **EVERYONE READ** > I think the time has come, lekatt, for you to either admit that people HAVE presented you with proof, or for people to simply stop debating with you altogether. You may think the proof that has been offered is false, at which point you should explain WHY you think it’s false. But if you continue to simply refuse to even acknowledge that people have, indeed, presented proofs of evolution, then there is no point in ANYONE continuing this discussion. It would be no different than trying to have a long conversation with someone who has retrograde short-term memory amneisa: every few minutes you’re back to square one with no memory of what has been said before. \*\* I have been presented with no proof of evolution. If you think I have please show me. And while you are there, please explain how something that happened millions of years ago can be known with such certainty today. ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/197 "2003-05-29T12:50:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*I was in the Navy eight years, what happened to the other five years. I think you are obsessed. I will wait until you play out your hand then show proof positive. \*\* Leroy - Isn’t this from your [website](http://ndeweb.com/Person.htm)? > [@](#): > > Born in Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA on September 14, 1937. Graduated from High School in 1955 with a Vocational Certification in Printing. Thought at this time my future was well planned. 🙂 > > Held several positions in the Printing Industry until I was hired, in 1959, by a typesetting company. This employment would last 31 years. I began as a hot metal Linotype Operator and progressed to President and half-owner of the Company. Over the years many, many changes occurred and I learned the new technology by the hands-on method. Where do these eight years in the Navy fit in? Are you counting time in the reserve? You didn’t give proof positive a couple months ago, when the subject came up. Are you going to do that now? ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/198 "2003-05-29T14:22:57Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*This is the strangest yet. I have made this debate about me? Everyone is responsible for their posts, Everyone is totally accountable for their own words and deeds. Now the skeptical posters have seen fit to attack me on every level, including the personal, and you say I have made this debate about me. That’s a little like saying the devil made me do it. \*\* It’s quite simple, really… your posts in this thread have been consistently off-topic, inflammatory, and more about you than the topic at hand. As you say, everyone is responsible for their posts, and I don’t see you trying to keep it on topic. In fact, you seem to relish talking about yourself. Perhaps it’s because you don’t have an honest way to defend your views on the subject. “The devil made me do it?” You think a little too highly of yourself. Instead of talking about your service record and about World War II, why not talk about the pledge, which is where this topic started? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/199 "2003-05-29T14:42:08Z")
lekatt: The other five years are irrelevant because the time that Simon was addressing were the years you said you served on a particular ship for a particular three years. Simon has obtained proof that you did no such thing. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/200 "2003-05-29T15:03:38Z")
blah blah adhom blah personalattack blah. Now. What was the subject of this debate again? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808.md?page=11)