# Is pledge anti-American? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2003, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808 "2003-05-17T01:04:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/201 "2003-05-29T15:51:59Z")
> [@](#): > > _ **lekatt** lies:_: > I have been presented with no proof of evolution. If you think I have please show me. [**lekatt** claims that no one has seen one species become another.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3437425#post3437425) [Specific instances of observed speciation are provided only a couple of posts later.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3437665#post3437665) [In the very same thread, **lekatt** repeats his lie that there is no evidence.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3442731&highlight=speciation#post3442731) This is not a matter of you refuting the evidence presented. This is a matter of you continuing to ignore evidence that you don’t want to see and then lying that it has not been presented. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/202 "2003-05-29T16:00:42Z")
As an adult, the pledge has always struck me as pointless. I have no allegiance to the flag. If it changes so what? The flag is a neat piece of artwork. I like it alright. but “allegiance” to it? Come on. I do hold an allegiance to American ideals as I perceive them. To me that’s what my patriotism is about. [sub]I apologize for participating in the hijack of this thread.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/203 "2003-05-29T17:11:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*[**lekatt** claims that no one has seen one species become another.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3437425#post3437425) > > [Specific instances of observed speciation are provided only a couple of posts later.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3437665#post3437665) > > [In the very same thread, **lekatt** repeats his lie that there is no evidence.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&postid=3442731&highlight=speciation#post3442731) > > This is not a matter of you refuting the evidence presented. This is a matter of you continuing to ignore evidence that you don’t want to see and then lying that it has not been presented. \*\* I read it and it talked about something that happened a few years ago in a lab. It didn’t say a thing about what happened millions of years ago. Are you saying you recreated evolution? Also I have noticed some comments from others that didn’t believe it had any bearing on evolution. It is just a matter of opinion, not proof. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/204 "2003-05-29T17:22:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Papermache Prince \* > \*\*Leroy - Isn’t this from your [website](http://ndeweb.com/Person.htm)?Where do these eight years in the Navy fit in? Are you counting time in the reserve? You didn’t give proof positive a couple months ago, when the subject came up. Are you going to do that now? \*\* Yes, I am counting time in the reserve, I was still in the Navy. I don’t remember picking any dates for sure, It is hard to recall something that happened over 40 years ago. ---
**Author:** ![PatriotX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c4cdca/32.png) [@PatriotX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatriotX)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/205 "2003-05-29T17:22:48Z")
[Great place to discuss observed instances of speciation as per evolution.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?s=&threadid=186755&highlight=rebuttal) ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/206 "2003-05-29T18:54:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*Yes, I am counting time in the reserve, I was still in the Navy. I don’t remember picking any dates for sure, It is hard to recall something that happened over 40 years ago. \*\* That’s all well and good. But what about that “proof positive” you’ve mentioned several times? Here’s your chance to stick to SimonX, me, and any other doubters of your claims re: naval service. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/207 "2003-05-29T18:57:45Z")
**Dear lekatt:** A while back in this thread, you mentioned the brave Americans who risked their lives fighting in World War II for the sake of their country. Some – a minority, admittedly, but still some – of the men and women who served in the U.S. military during WW2 were atheists. Do you think **they** were fighting for God as well as country? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/208 "2003-05-29T19:14:41Z")
> [@](#): > > I read it and it talked about something that happened a few years ago in a lab. It didn’t say a thing about what happened millions of years ago. Actually, you apparently did not read it, because it talked about several species that have developed in the wild. Your comment about what happened millions of years ago is irrelevant (and a demonstration of a real avoidance of knowledge). The whole point of the description of evolution is that it is an ongoing process. The same phenomena that are witnessed today are exactly the same events that are proposed to have happened millions of years ago because they indicate the same activity. You cannot separate “old” speciation from “new” speciation unless you can give a reason why speciation would have started just recently. Regardless, the links I provided clearly indicate that you do not actually participate in these threads; you simply post your uninformed beliefs as if they were fact, and then lie about what other people have posted. As such, you are simply indulging in the ignorance that we attempt to fight, here. ---
**Author:** ![photopat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e95f7d/32.png) [@photopat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/photopat)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/209 "2003-05-29T21:11:28Z")
The flag is a symbol. It’s a good symbol as far as that goes, but what matters is what the flag symbolizes, not the symbol itself. When religion-_any_ religion-becomes part of the secular government of a country, I just don’t think that’s a good thing. When any group, whether religious or not, is condemned because it doesn’t conform to some assumed standard of belief, or isn’t given the same treatment as all others, that’s a very bad thing. The pledge is fine as far as it goes but people who think the pledge, or the flag, is more important than any persons opinion, are not the kind of people that I believe founded this country. ---
**Author:** ![MarlaDurden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@MarlaDurden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MarlaDurden)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/210 "2003-05-29T21:16:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Captain Amazing \* > \*\*And the first amendment guarantees your right to do that too. 🙂 \*\* **LMFAO** 😃 Ahh, that it does, and if you want to, go right ahead, at least I won’t criticize you for what you do/believe/say…etc. Ignorance solves nothing. America is an ignorant country. If you want to pledge allegiance to ignorance, then be my guest. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/211 "2003-05-29T22:56:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MarlaDurden \* > America is an ignorant country. Pretty sweeping, and ignorant, comment, that. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2003, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/212 "2003-05-29T23:06:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MarlaDurden \* > **I refuse to stand for the Pledge, because I don’t agree with that which our country does at times. Because of my beliefs, I am often victim of dirty looks and crude comments. This _is_ America, correct? It has been my understanding for the past 18 years that America is “land of the free, home of the brave,” and that under the First Amendment we are guaranteed the “freedom” of speech. Therefore, am I not entitled to an opinion? When did America stop being a free country? Why do we judge others based on opinions?** Limitations on the protections granted by the 1st Amendment aside, I believe a quote from the movie _Easy Rider_ is in order here: GEORGE: “They’ll talk to ya and talk to ya and talk to ya about individual freedom. But they see a free individual, it’s gonna scare 'em.” ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/213 "2003-05-30T11:23:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*Actually, you apparently did not read it, because it talked about several species that have developed in the wild. > > Your comment about what happened millions of years ago is irrelevant (and a demonstration of a real avoidance of knowledge). The whole point of the description of evolution is that it is an ongoing process. The same phenomena that are witnessed today are exactly the same events that are proposed to have happened millions of years ago because they indicate the same activity. You cannot separate “old” speciation from “new” speciation unless you can give a reason why speciation would have started just recently. > > Regardless, the links I provided clearly indicate that you do not actually participate in these threads; you simply post your uninformed beliefs as if they were fact, and then lie about what other people have posted. As such, you are simply indulging in the ignorance that we attempt to fight, here. \*\* The only ignorance one is qualified to fight is self-ignorance. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/214 "2003-05-30T11:33:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\ ***Dear lekatt:** > > A while back in this thread, you mentioned the brave Americans who risked their lives fighting in World War II for the sake of their country. > > Some – a minority, admittedly, but still some – of the men and women who served in the U.S. military during WW2 were atheists. > > Do you think **they** were fighting for God as well as country? \*\* One never fights for God, He can take care of Himself. I don’t remember anything being said about atheists from that period of time in my life, except “there are no atheists in the foxholes.” Can’t verify that, but when we were in the middle of a hurricane, everybody within my line of sight was praying, including the Captain. Every so often He would look up and say: " God help us through this." I have done volunteer work at hospice, and again I never talked with anyone who professed to be an atheist. I know people act really “tough” when things are going ok, but most change their attitude when staring death in the face. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/215 "2003-05-30T15:57:32Z")
> [@](#): > > I read it and it talked about something that happened a few years ago in a lab. It didn’t say a thing about what happened millions of years ago. We are going to play this game then? If I say “WWII never happened” can you prove me wrong without using inference? ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 4:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/216 "2003-05-30T16:00:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Well I just be damned, Apos, I thought that you guys (meaning all posters who think like you) understood the limits of human understanding. If fact, as you all are able to summon up the courage to respond to deep thoughts, I would have thought that you realized that logic can only take us to small places. Apparently you don’t. What are you talking about? > [@](#): > > Evolution, don’t you know, is a well designed process and maybe it is true as we thinking animals understand the nature of things, (by the way I understand evolution better than most of you guys on this board) but those of us who really understand evolution and the nature of existence realize that we don’t. Care to enlighten us with more than hinted at glimpses of your genius insight? > [@](#): > > The call for “Proof” to anyone that has a working knowledge of our languages is a bull shitting tip. The call for proof of assertions is perfectly legitimate. However, incoherent rambling is ill-advised as a messageboard tactic. If you have something to assert, then say it, and then defend your assertion with actual argument instead of making bold claims about where you think my logic is overreaching, or what your great insights are. In other words: “Put up, or shut up.” ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/217 "2003-05-30T16:59:59Z")
> [@](#): > > The only ignorance one is qualified to fight is self-ignorance. You’re losing. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/218 "2003-05-30T17:43:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*We are going to play this game then? > > If I say “WWII never happened” can you prove me wrong without using inference? \*\* Sure, we have people still alive who witnessed it and fought in it. We have photos, movies, graveyards, monuments, etc. We even have planes, tanks etc. With your supposed evolution, we are asked to assume that one creature evolved in another creature over a period of millions of years. There are no withnesses, no one went back in time and observed it. We have no photos of it happening, we only have assumption or faith. Now that is not proof and never will be. The general public knows evolution is theory, but the scientists seem to have forgotten. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/219 "2003-05-30T17:45:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*You’re losing. \*\* At least I am still trying. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/220 "2003-05-30T17:54:37Z")
> [@](#): > > At least I am still trying. Actually, you appear to have surrendered to ignorance some time ago. You have taken one or two _feelings_ about how the world ought to work and expanded them into a personal belief system that safely excludes any contradiction, usually by mis-defining the meanings of words, often by repeating falsehoods as if they were a mantra that would make them come true by repetition. As a personal philosophy, I would not criticize your choice to live in your own odd cocoon of error. When you come to this message board and repeat those whimsical beliefs, contrary to fact, and insist on interjecting your feelings into discussions of fact, then you are proselytizing for ignorance. I see that you have repeated, once again, your lie about what has or has not been seen in evolutionary development. It is clear from the way that you express your error that you have never even taken the time to try to understand what has or has not been observed regarding evolution. Whatever your personal feelings about how the world works, that sort of willfull ignorance is truly sad. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808.md?page=12)