# Is pledge anti-American? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2003, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808 "2003-05-17T01:04:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/221 "2003-05-30T19:09:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by lekatt \* > \*\*I don’t remember anything being said about atheists from that period of time in my life [WW2], except “there are no atheists in the foxholes.” > > Can’t verify that, but when we were in the middle of a hurricane, everybody within my line of sight was praying, including the Captain. Every so often He would look up and say: " God help us through this." > > I have done volunteer work at hospice, and again I never talked with anyone who professed to be an atheist. I know people act really “tough” when things are going ok, but most change their attitude when staring death in the face.\*\* Hoo boy. Ignoring for a moment the distinct possibility (as pointed out by others in this thread) that you never actually **were** in a hurricane while onboard a ship, I present to you the following list of atheists who **were** in foxholes (and still continued to be atheists): Edmonde De Amicis, Sir Richard Francis Burton, Giuseppe Garibaldi, General Victoriano Huerta, Colonel Robert G. Ingersoll, The Marquis Marie Jean Paul Roch Yves Gilbert Marie De Layfayette, General Sir Charles James Napier, General Arthur Condorcet O’Connor, General Bernardo O’Higgins, Major-General Sir Henry Creswickm Bart Rawlinson, and Edward John Trelawny. (Source: [http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/society.html#foxholes](http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/society.html#foxholes)) It is also important to remember that few atheists “profess” to being atheists. It’s not something most atheists consider important to bring up in conversation (unlike recently born-again Christians, who generally love to talk about how they found Jesus at the drop of a hat). Furthermore, in the middle of the century, an American who professed atheism was taking a chance of being ostracised by his peers. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/222 "2003-05-30T22:05:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*Actually, you appear to have surrendered to ignorance some time ago. You have taken one or two _feelings_ about how the world ought to work and expanded them into a personal belief system that safely excludes any contradiction, usually by mis-defining the meanings of words, often by repeating falsehoods as if they were a mantra that would make them come true by repetition. As a personal philosophy, I would not criticize your choice to live in your own odd cocoon of error. When you come to this message board and repeat those whimsical beliefs, contrary to fact, and insist on interjecting your feelings into discussions of fact, then you are proselytizing for ignorance. I see that you have repeated, once again, your lie about what has or has not been seen in evolutionary development. It is clear from the way that you express your error that you have never even taken the time to try to understand what has or has not been observed regarding evolution. > > Whatever your personal feelings about how the world works, that sort of willfull ignorance is truly sad. \*\* I base my beliefs on my experience. What I have seen first hand and up close. They are held by more people than yours to be true. I have scientific studies and documented fact to back up what I say. [http://www.ndeweb.com/discus/messages/65/6142.html?1054332224](http://www.ndeweb.com/discus/messages/65/6142.html?1054332224) These are just a small sample of that evidence and proof. No one can judge another’s ignorance until they have completely eliminated their own. If you should be able to eliminate all of your own ignorance, you will be on the level of God. Good Luck. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/223 "2003-05-30T22:17:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*Hoo boy. > > Ignoring for a moment the distinct possibility (as pointed out by others in this thread) that you never actually **were** in a hurricane while onboard a ship, I present to you the following list of atheists who **were** in foxholes (and still continued to be atheists): > > Edmonde De Amicis, Sir Richard Francis Burton, Giuseppe Garibaldi, General Victoriano Huerta, Colonel Robert G. Ingersoll, The Marquis Marie Jean Paul Roch Yves Gilbert Marie De Layfayette, General Sir Charles James Napier, General Arthur Condorcet O’Connor, General Bernardo O’Higgins, Major-General Sir Henry Creswickm Bart Rawlinson, and Edward John Trelawny. > > (Source: [http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/society.html#foxholes](http://www.infidels.org/news/atheism/society.html#foxholes)) > > It is also important to remember that few atheists “profess” to being atheists. It’s not something most atheists consider important to bring up in conversation (unlike recently born-again Christians, who generally love to talk about how they found Jesus at the drop of a hat). Furthermore, in the middle of the century, an American who professed atheism was taking a chance of being ostracised by his peers. \*\* No way to verify your list and no need too. As you relate, Atheist is a professed belief. It is not something that can be experienced like God can be experienced. I believe that atheists do change, at least most of them, when they are faced with their own mortality. This is shown in near death experiences over and over. Many NDEers, were agnostic or atheist before their experience including myself. Strangely enough it was not fear had changed them, it was God’s love. Not trying to change your belief, no need to, this is just what I have experienced in my path through life. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/224 "2003-05-30T22:29:50Z")
> [@](#): > > Sure, we have people still alive who witnessed it and fought in it. We have photos, movies, graveyards, monuments, etc. We even have planes, tanks etc. Yes, but I said: without inference. Without the logical inferences that are denying as a valid means to knowledge in the case of evolution. None of the objects you cite have the least validity unless one can draw inferences from them. Indeed, without inference, there can be no evidence that the past existed at all. Human observation is not evidence of past events without inference: all it is is evidence of human memory, which is not the same thing as evidence of the past UNLESS you grant the use of logical inference. > [@](#): > > With your supposed evolution, we are asked to assume that one creature evolved in another creature over a period of millions of years. We are not asked to assume any such thing: it is demonstrated wih exactly the same sorts of logical inferences from currently existing evidence that one uses to track events in the past, observed or not. ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/225 "2003-05-30T22:38:42Z")
> [@](#): > > As you relate, Atheist is a professed belief. A professed _lack_ of a **particular** belief. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 30, 2003, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/226 "2003-05-30T22:40:25Z")
> [@](#): > > No one can judge another’s ignorance until they have completely eliminated their own. Patently ridiculous. I can well judge the degree of ignorance in my children, based on what I know and what they do not. I can see their grasp of knowledge improve and I can judge the manner and degree to which their ignorance diminishes. In fact, if the teachers of my children were unable to judge the ignorance of my children, I would demand that those teachers be replaced with competent teachers who _could_ judge ignorance. Similarly, I am able to compare the “knowledge” you have posted regarding the second world war and compare it to my knowledge and determine that your ignorance is greater, in that you have expressed some knowledge, but also have displayed errors of fact. Regarding your posts on evolution, you consistently display a level of ignorance comparable to any person who had never actually studied the evidence. I make no judgment regarding your reported NDE or the philosophical conclusion you may have drawn from it. In that I would have more ignorance of your life than you would. However, you then go on (despite _your_ claim that we should not or cannot judge the ignorance of others) and make bold claims regarding what atheists do or do not believe–in the face of testimony from atheists (among whom I am not numbered) that their experience contradicts your claims. At this point, you have established that you are not merely ignorant of science and history, but that you are a hypocrite, insisting that no one else can determine another’s ignorance while proclaiming yourself able to determine the same for them. ---
**Author:** ![blue22](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/58f4c7/32.png) [@blue22](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blue22)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/227 "2003-05-31T01:58:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SimonX \* > \*\*As an adult, the pledge has always struck me as pointless. I have no allegiance to the flag. If it changes so what? The flag is a neat piece of artwork. I like it alright. but “allegiance” to it? Come on. > > I do hold an allegiance to American ideals as I perceive them. To me that’s what my patriotism is about. > [sub]I apologize for participating in the hijack of this thread.[/sub] \*\* Yes, very true. What do pledging allegiance to the flag and maintaning American ideals have in common? The Pledge is an attempt to instill patriotism into the minds of its citizens, but if one is patriotic one does not need to profess it on a daily basis. ( **SimonX** : No offense taken. The hijack has made this thread infinitely more interesting.) ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/228 "2003-05-31T02:40:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*Yes, but I said: without inference. Without the logical inferences that are denying as a valid means to knowledge in the case of evolution. > > None of the objects you cite have the least validity unless one can draw inferences from them. Indeed, without inference, there can be no evidence that the past existed at all. Human observation is not evidence of past events without inference: all it is is evidence of human memory, which is not the same thing as evidence of the past UNLESS you grant the use of logical inference. > > We are not asked to assume any such thing: it is demonstrated wih exactly the same sorts of logical inferences from currently existing evidence that one uses to track events in the past, observed or not. \*\* It took me awhile, but I understand now what you are saying. Everying requires inference, and all inference is suspect. Yes. that’s one way of looking at things. Socrates said “the only true knowledge is knowing that you know nothing.” OK, if we say you are right and we can’t really “know” anything. Then why are they teaching evolution in school as if it were known. You have only proved my argument rather than refuted it. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/229 "2003-05-31T02:48:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*A professed _lack_ of a **particular** belief. \*\* Yes, and when one professes a lack of a belief, he then professes a belief of a lack of a belief. Word play. If you decide not to make a decision, in doing so you have made a decision. There is no running away from responsibility. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/230 "2003-05-31T03:14:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*Patently ridiculous. I can well judge the degree of ignorance in my children, based on what I know and what they do not. I can see their grasp of knowledge improve and I can judge the manner and degree to which their ignorance diminishes. In fact, if the teachers of my children were unable to judge the ignorance of my children, I would demand that those teachers be replaced with competent teachers who _could_ judge ignorance. > > Similarly, I am able to compare the “knowledge” you have posted regarding the second world war and compare it to my knowledge and determine that your ignorance is greater, in that you have expressed some knowledge, but also have displayed errors of fact. Regarding your posts on evolution, you consistently display a level of ignorance comparable to any person who had never actually studied the evidence. > > I make no judgment regarding your reported NDE or the philosophical conclusion you may have drawn from it. In that I would have more ignorance of your life than you would. However, you then go on (despite _your_ claim that we should not or cannot judge the ignorance of others) and make bold claims regarding what atheists do or do not believe–in the face of testimony from atheists (among whom I am not numbered) that their experience contradicts your claims. > > At this point, you have established that you are not merely ignorant of science and history, but that you are a hypocrite, insisting that no one else can determine another’s ignorance while proclaiming yourself able to determine the same for them. \*\* Mostly what you say depends of your definition of ignorance. I use the word meaning to “ignore” or to deny known knowledge. Your children are not ignorant because they are young and not of full knowledge of worldly things. People are not ignorant because they lack specialized knowledge. Whether your “ignorance” is greater than my “ignorance” reminds me of the old, horary argument of: “my is dog bigger than your dog.” Trying to return to reality – no one is in any position to judge the knowledge, intelligence, or worthiness of any other individual. To do so would require a complete knowledge of that individual, and only God is privy to that. I do not now, nor have I ever proclaimed perfection, I will make mistakes as everyone does, therefore it is best for both of us to work on our own ignorance than trying to change others. The former is possible and the latter impossible. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 3:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/231 "2003-05-31T03:23:31Z")
lekatt: Just for sheer entertainment value, why don’t you start using the word “ignorance” the way the rest of the planet does? Ignoring something is what you specialize at, apparently. Ignorance is not ignoring something. It is a lack of knowledge, and in your case, a willfull lack. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/232 "2003-05-31T03:30:04Z")
> [@](#): > > therefore it is best for both of us to work on our own ignorance than trying to change others. Then, unless you’re embracing and flaunting your hypocrisy, you will stop interrupting other threads with your false claims regarding evolution and your erroneous claims about who is atheist and what they believe. Go work on your own ignorance. ---
**Author:** ![dejahma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dejahma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dejahma)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/233 "2003-05-31T03:38:51Z")
ok I admit it I skipped most of the arguments here. IMHO the pledge should not be mandatory for children (most important), teens, or adults. Think about it, as an adult how would you really feel if you were required to say or sign the pledge every day before work? For more insight into loyalty pledges read Catch 22. Most children don’t know what they are saying and have no appreciation for the thoughts behind the pledge. I personally have never been able to say the part about “under god” because I don’t believe that “god” cares a hoot about any given nation on earth. Why would he/she/they/it like the US more than Spain, or Britain, or India, or Afganistan? ---
**Author:** ![dejahma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/839c29/32.png) [@dejahma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dejahma)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/234 "2003-05-31T03:52:44Z")
PS lekatt; Everything a scientist knows is theory. We observe the world and postulate. We accept nothing based on feelings, hope, or belief. That is the realm of religion not science. And as Jerry says, “not that there’s anything wrong with that” ---
**Author:** ![Apos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/838e76/32.png) [@Apos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apos)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/235 "2003-05-31T04:53:36Z")
> [@](#): > > Yes, and when one professes a lack of a belief, he then professes a belief of a lack of a belief. Word play. The word play is yours. What is being proffessed is not a belief qua anything about external reality, but rather simply a description of oneself: that belief, that others have, is not in me. That is distinctly different from expressing a belief about a particular state of truth in the world. > [@](#): > > If you decide not to make a decision, in doing so you have made a decision. There is no running away from responsibility. I don’t know what “responsibility” you are talking about, but the fact is that if you lack a particular objective belief, you are not asserting any objective belief in expressing it. > [@](#): > > OK, if we say you are right and we can’t really “know” anything. Then why are they teaching evolution in school as if it were known. You have only proved my argument rather than refuted it. No, I ve done the opposite. GIVEN that we are willing to accept inference as a “better-than-nothing” means to talk about things like the past: things that, without which, almost any discussion of truth would be meaningless, you cannot selectively deny the use of inference in one instance while embracing it in another. If you want to assert that you were on such and such ship at such and such time in the past, and present evidence that you think substantiates this, then you cannot deny that other evidence, such as that of evolution, is of an invalid form. Philosophically, it is of an identical form. ---
**Author:** ![Blalron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/35a633/32.png) [@Blalron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blalron)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/236 "2003-05-31T06:31:30Z")
> [@](#): > > The only ignorance one is qualified to fight is self-ignorance. All right, Lekatt. If you are interested in fighting your own ignorance, go to a library and read a few books about evolution. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/237 "2003-05-31T09:24:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tomndebb \* > \*\*Then, unless you’re embracing and flaunting your hypocrisy, you will stop interrupting other threads with your false claims regarding evolution and your erroneous claims about who is atheist and what they believe. Go work on your own ignorance. \*\* I claim the right to free speech as much as the rest of you. My opinions are as valid as any. Perhaps the ego is getting in the way of reason. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 9:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/238 "2003-05-31T09:28:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by dejahma \* > \*\*ok I admit it I skipped most of the arguments here. IMHO the pledge should not be mandatory for children (most important), teens, or adults. Think about it, as an adult how would you really feel if you were required to say or sign the pledge every day before work? For more insight into loyalty pledges read Catch 22. Most children don’t know what they are saying and have no appreciation for the thoughts behind the pledge. I personally have never been able to say the part about “under god” because I don’t believe that “god” cares a hoot about any given nation on earth. Why would he/she/they/it like the US more than Spain, or Britain, or India, or Afganistan? \*\* The best reason yet for removing “under God” from the pledge. You, I believe, are right, God’s love is for individuals, not countries. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/239 "2003-05-31T09:31:19Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Blalron \* > \*\*All right, Lekatt. If you are interested in fighting your own ignorance, go to a library and read a few books about evolution. \*\* While I have already read a number of books on evolution, it is still a good idea, meet you there. Love Leroy ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 31, 2003, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/240 "2003-05-31T09:58:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Apos \* > \*\*The word play is yours. What is being proffessed is not a belief qua anything about external reality, but rather simply a description of oneself: that belief, that others have, is not in me. That is distinctly different from expressing a belief about a particular state of truth in the world. > > I don’t know what “responsibility” you are talking about, but the fact is that if you lack a particular objective belief, you are not asserting any objective belief in expressing it. > > No, I ve done the opposite. GIVEN that we are willing to accept inference as a “better-than-nothing” means to talk about things like the past: things that, without which, almost any discussion of truth would be meaningless, you cannot selectively deny the use of inference in one instance while embracing it in another. If you want to assert that you were on such and such ship at such and such time in the past, and present evidence that you think substantiates this, then you cannot deny that other evidence, such as that of evolution, is of an invalid form. Philosophically, it is of an identical form. \*\* I think you are trying to change the reality of life, and make it conform to what you think it ought to be. If you decide that God does not exist, then that is a decision. It is also a belief and carries certain ramifications with it. People who don’t believe in God, have different behaviours than those who do. For example, they don’t worship in church, pray, etc. It seems to me you are trying to argue that the direction North, is North for everyone, but you. I don’t think you will get many to accept that. Now as for your stance on evolution and inference. If we take the other side of the coin and say it is essential, or a better-than-nothing solution to truth. Then we must be fair and allow other theories of evolution, proved through inference, to be taught in school also. Like the one below or hundreds of others that would fit this description. You have again proved my belief that more than one theory of how man came about on earth should be taught in school. Either that or none at all. As of now, it is unfairly biased teaching, and our children are misled. > **[Issues Archive](https://www.firstthings.com/issue/1997/03)** > > Religion and public life is not a new topic. Grab a cup of coffee and read through the archive of First Things issues that date back to 1990! Love Leroy [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808.md?page=13)