# Is pledge anti-American?

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808>\
**Category:** Great Debates\
**Created:** [May 17, 2003, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808 "2003-05-17T01:04:33Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 20\
**Page:** 2

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**Author:** ![Conflict\_of\_Interest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/57b2e6/32.png) [@Conflict\_of\_Interest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conflict_of_Interest)\
**Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/21 "2003-05-17T03:36:06Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by LolaCocaCola \*  
> \*\*Pol Sci major, perchance, **Conflict of Interest**?
> 
> 😃 \*\*

Nope. Actually I’m a Computer Network Engineer. 🙂

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**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\
**Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/22 "2003-05-17T03:47:40Z")

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If you don’t like the pledge for various reasons, put your hands down to your sides while standing while it is being recited. I’m an unbaptized JW and I do it.

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**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\
**Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/23 "2003-05-17T03:47:47Z")

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If you don’t like the pledge for various reasons, put your hands down to your sides while it is being recited. I’m an unbaptized JW and I do it.

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**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\
**Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/24 "2003-05-17T04:06:03Z")

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capacitor: And if one’s personal religious views consider that standing during it is also participating it?

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**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\
**Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/25 "2003-05-17T04:10:01Z")

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Yes, the PoA is un-American. It’s mindless, fascistic chanting with totally gratuitous, theistic assertion unlawfully shoehorned into the middle. It serves no purpose other than to try to make children into unquestioning sheep. We are NOT “one nation under God,” and allegiance is something which has to be _earned_ by a state, not demanded.

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**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\
**Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/26 "2003-05-17T04:44:23Z")

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Looking up “allegiance” in the dictionary, I see that it is listed as “fidelity”. The unescapable conclusion is that **LolaCocaCola** is a two-timing harlot.

On a more serious note, how is an oath of loyalty un-american? The line about “under god” is a bit questionable, but the rest of the pledge is merely an oath of loyalty. I think some people, such as **Diogenes** , may be under the false impression that freedom is absolute when living in a “free” nation. The state can and does impose it’s will on it’s citizens. This is both right and proper. The pledge merely means that you will perform your duties _as a citizen_ if and when you are called upon, though those duties infringe upon your freedom. The notion that the state has to earn that allegiance by meeting each individual’s arbitrary criteria is absurd. “America let me down” is not an excuse that will get you out of jury duty.

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**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\
**Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 4:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/27 "2003-05-17T04:57:56Z")

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I loathe the stupid thing, but I’m not sure I’d say anti-American. Un-American, maybe (although what that would really mean is un-democratic, which I think it is). Pointless and stupid are other words that spring to mind more quickly.

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**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\
**Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 4:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/28 "2003-05-17T04:58:08Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by A Monkey With a Gun \*  
> \*\*Looking up “allegiance” in the dictionary, I see that it is listed as “fidelity”. The unescapable conclusion is that **LolaCocaCola** is a two-timing harlot.
> 
> On a more serious note, how is an oath of loyalty un-american? The line about “under god” is a bit questionable, but the rest of the pledge is merely an oath of loyalty. I think some people, such as **Diogenes** , may be under the false impression that freedom is absolute when living in a “free” nation. The state can and does impose it’s will on it’s citizens. This is both right and proper. The pledge merely means that you will perform your duties _as a citizen_ if and when you are called upon, though those duties infringe upon your freedom. The notion that the state has to earn that allegiance by meeting each individual’s arbitrary criteria is absurd. “America let me down” is not an excuse that will get you out of jury duty. \*\*

My “duty” as a citizen is to pay my taxes. that’s it. I’m allowed to _think_ whatever I want and that’s what’s wrong with forcing defenseless children to chant an oath of loyalty. My country will get exactly as much “allegiance” from me as I feel it deserves, and no more. What’s great about America is that its allegiance is voluntary. Any attempt to make it madatory undermines our own core principle which is, above all, freedom of thought.

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**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\
**Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/29 "2003-05-17T05:12:32Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by Monty \*  
> \*\*capacitor: And if one’s personal religious views consider that standing during it is also participating it? \*\*

Then sit?

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**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\
**Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/30 "2003-05-17T05:12:57Z")

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**Diogenes** , if allegiance was truly voluntary there would be no such thing as treason. Allegiance isn’t about thought. It’s about action. It’s about performing one’s duty. Even if an American disagrees with the concept of trial by jury, or the rules contained in it’s practice, the loylaty to the state requires that he perform what is expected of him. This allegiance isn’t voluntary. It is part of the social contract contained in being a citizen. It _is_ possible to renounce your citizenship, but if you remain a citizen, a certain amount of allegiance is required.

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**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\
**Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/31 "2003-05-17T05:23:48Z")

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Let me put it another way. Pledging allegiance simply means that you are swearing to fullfull your obligations as a citizen. Pay taxes, show up for jury duty, etc. That’s it. The word, and the pledge itself, is wont to be bent by both sides for political purposes. There is nothing inherently anti-american in acknowledging that you have duties to the state, duties to what the state stands for stands for, and swearing that you will fullfill those duties.

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**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\
**Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/32 "2003-05-17T05:27:36Z")

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If allegiance isn’t voluntary it isn’t real, and sometimes treason is warranted. The fact that I can be punished or killed for it would not make me wrong.

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**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\
**Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/33 "2003-05-17T05:29:39Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by A Monkey With a Gun \*  
> \*\*Let me put it another way. Pledging allegiance simply means that you are swearing to fullfull your obligations as a citizen. Pay taxes, show up for jury duty, etc. That’s it. The word, and the pledge itself, is wont to be bent by both sides for political purposes. There is nothing inherently anti-american in acknowledging that you have duties to the state, duties to what the state stands for stands for, and swearing that you will fullfill those duties. \*\*

What’s the point of making peple swear it. We already have laws forcing people to showb up for jury dutu and pay taxes, so what’s the point of making people _say_ that tghey’ll do those things, especially _children_?

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**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\
**Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/34 "2003-05-17T05:30:48Z")

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My God, what happened to my typing skills?

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**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\
**Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/35 "2003-05-17T05:36:02Z")

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If I have a duty to the state then I will show my allegiance by fulfilling it, in military service or jury duty or tax payment or whatever.

Making me engage in some ritualistic chant about how I’m going to be allied with my country smacks of cheap Third World dictators’ mind control efforts. It’s more of a Saddam Hussein thing than a U.S.A. thing. We’re the smart people, the active people, the people who do things right without being led around by the nose by the gummint.

I think the in the opinion of the guys who passed the Pledge legislation we’re a, what do they call it? Oh, yeah… rabble.

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**Author:** ![armedmonkey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@armedmonkey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/armedmonkey)\
**Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/36 "2003-05-17T05:48:16Z")

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Don’t get me wrong, I think that making a bunch of eight year olds in Colorado say the thing every morning is silly, unnecesary, and pointless. I would wish the state legislature had better things to do, but then I remember that I live in a state whose legislature spent the last two years in upheavel over what the state flag should look like and recently introduced a bill mandating the sale of sweet tea if a restaurant decides to serve any tea at all. Believe me, I know silly.

However, the OP never asked about the kids in Colorado - just the pledge itself. And no, it is neither anti- nor un-American.

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**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\
**Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/37 "2003-05-17T05:59:59Z")

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I see where you’re coming from, **Monkey**. I really think it’s the _forcing_ kids (or adults, for that matter) to say it part that’s fascistic.

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**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\
**Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 7:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/38 "2003-05-17T07:03:00Z")

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I don’t mind the Pledge of Allegiance from a “doing it as part of the ritual” POV. Rituals are good, IMO, if they don’t get overdone; a familiar part of the activities we participate in, like singing the national anthem before a baseball game.

On the other hand, I _do_ object to the “under God” phrase, simply because IMO it _is_ a government endorsement of religion, and goes against the ideas the Founding Fathers believed in.

And I’m doubly opposed to _forcing_ anyone to recite the pledge, especially a captive audience like a classroom full of children. The value of the Pledge is meaningless unless it’s recited willingly – mandatory parroting the darn thing is blasphemy.

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**Author:** ![Early\_Out](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/6f9a4e/32.png) [@Early\_Out](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Early_Out)\
**Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/39 "2003-05-17T12:39:05Z")

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> [@](#):
>
> \*Originally posted by lander2k2 \*  
> \*\*Shit, the child doesn’t even understand properly what they’re pledging allegiance to! \*\*

True, indeed. I recited the silly thing for years, always wondering who this Richard Stans guy was. ("… and to the republic, for Richard Stans, one nation…")

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**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\
**Post date:** [May 17, 2003, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pledge-anti-american/175808/40 "2003-05-17T12:50:28Z")

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I had to say the pledge when I was at school in Texas. I’m English.

Personally, I find it a bit spooky. I don’t think there are many other Western democracies that require children to commit themselves daily - with religious overtones - to a symbol of the country - if any. For example, UK children don’t have to say how much we dig the Queen, unless we’re in the Boy Scouts.

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