# Is poker gambling? **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [May 4, 2014, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poker-gambling/687645 "2014-05-04T16:32:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 8\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poker-gambling/687645/61 "2014-05-06T17:22:07Z")
OK, so granted that it’s possible for a skilled poker player to consistently bring in more money than they’re losing: I don’t think anyone disputes that. But when such a skilled player sits down at a table, what are the _other_ players at the table doing? You can’t have everyone at a table winning. If they’re gambling by playing poker, then poker is gambling. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poker-gambling/687645/62 "2014-05-06T18:14:14Z")
Seems logical to start with a definition. From [Merriam-Webster online](http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gamble): > [@](#): > > 1gam·ble verb \ˈgam-bəl\ : to play a game in which you can win or lose money or possessions : to bet money or other valuable things > > : to risk losing (an amount of money) in a game or bet > > : to risk losing (something valuable or important) in order to do or achieve something No mention of “chance” in any of these definitions, only a risk of losing money and/or valuables. Seems like gambling to me. As does farming for a living. ---
**Author:** ![JeffB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeffb/32/188_2.png) [@JeffB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JeffB)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poker-gambling/687645/63 "2014-05-06T20:29:34Z")
> [@Maserschmidt](#): > > This question has come up in at least one court case: > [http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/22/nyregion/poker-is-more-a-game-of-skill-than-of-chance-a-judge-rules.html?\_r=0](http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/22/nyregion/poker-is-more-a-game-of-skill-than-of-chance-a-judge-rules.html?_r=0) > > I also know that the poker-isn’t-gambling argument has been made to legislators in defense of online poker, but I didn’t find any citations for it. That’s more about the question of poker as a game of chance versus a game of skill than whether it’s gambling. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poker-gambling/687645/64 "2014-05-06T20:49:17Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Yes, poker is gambling, and no, it doesn’t work quite the way you seem to think it does. If it did, you’d have multiple bracelets from the World Series of Poker, and Phil Helmuth would be your bitch. Phil Hel"Mouth" may not be _ **my** _ bitch, but he is certainly _ **a** _ bitch, and a whiny one at that. To the OP: Yes, it’s gambling. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2014, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poker-gambling/687645/65 "2014-05-06T23:13:56Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > OK, so granted that it’s possible for a skilled poker player to consistently bring in more money than they’re losing: I don’t think anyone disputes that. But when such a skilled player sits down at a table, what are the _other_ players at the table doing? You can’t have everyone at a table winning. If they’re gambling by playing poker, then poker is gambling. But what about my point: that the general connotation of “gambling” and “gambler” are such that it’s automatically seen as a sad story if the head of the household does a lot of it? If he’s using math and psychology to consistently bring home the bacon, why should he be lumped in with desperate characters who bring ruin to their families, hide from bookies, etc.? I think there’s a widely understood connotation to this word, or set of related words, that someone “gambling” has at \*least \*as much chance of losing money as they do of winning. Which is just not true of a good poker player. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poker-gambling/687645/66 "2014-05-07T01:15:06Z")
Then you need to rehabilitate the word “gambling”. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poker-gambling/687645/67 "2014-05-07T02:55:36Z")
But most gambling doesn’t deserve to be rehabilitated. It’s either a minour, relatively harmless, vice; or it’s a serious addiction that ruins lives. Games in which, over the long run, no one with any level of skill can come out ahead should not just be lumped into the same category with games in which people with skill extract money from people with less skill. ETA: When I lay it out that way, it does occur to me that it could be described as a different kind of vice, of taking advantage of the foolish and the drunk. But that’s a different argument and still puts it in a different category (it’s precisely because it’s not “gambling” in the vernacular sense for the skilled poker player, that it becomes a little like conning old people out of their life savings). ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [May 7, 2014, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poker-gambling/687645/68 "2014-05-07T03:02:28Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Whether this makes it a “game of luck” is a bit silly, since by that metric any game that is not solved is a “game of luck”, but there is certainly an element of chance involved. When you can’t pick the truly optimal move, you have to try to maximize the chance that the move is optimal. That’s a very skill-based thing, but it still involves chance. Well put, this is exactly what I mean, and of course I never considered or implied that chess is a “game of luck”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poker-gambling/687645.md?page=3)