# Is Polygamy Really Wrong? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2012, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440 "2012-06-27T09:03:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440/181 "2012-07-17T12:00:06Z")
> [@](#): > > If just one of you latecomers would actually bother reading the thread, I might actually shit a real brick. I have read the thread. Care to point out how that changes, your response, into anything resembling debate? So sorry I dared to wade in late, (the horror - I must not have read every word, surely!), in your thread to say I don’t see the pressing need to make it legal and can see several reasons not to. I see you’re not really about debating though. Especially with anyone who dared get here ‘late’. I’m going to assume you have no argument against, ‘there isn’t really any pressing need’, to change this law, based on your foolish response. And I’m not going to continue to engage with someone who all about what time I got here, instead of what I have to say. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440/182 "2012-07-17T13:00:58Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > I’ve known, over the years maybe half a dozen poly families. I don’t know any, in any configuration, who are pushing for legal marriage to more than one person (all that I’ve remained in touch with are pushing for gay marriage, but don’t see it as a path to poly marriage). > > Two are families that have remained in the same configuration now for decades. > > Two imploded, I long ago lost contact with any individual in the family and have no idea if the people in the family are still poly. > > Two straddle the open/poly line - meaningful relationships, but not making lifelong commitments to anyone other than their primary spouse. These folks aren’t looking for marriage. > > All involve people who are not straight. Ok then- why would a continuation of the Ban on Poly marriages mean anything to them? So a Ban on Poly marriages would not be a problem here. However, I note you still are dodging my question about gender balance, and it’s obvious why. ---
**Author:** ![E-Sabbath](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e19adc/32.png) [@E-Sabbath](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/E-Sabbath)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440/183 "2012-07-17T13:06:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, that’s one relationship with several guys and several girls, and no marriage wanted? Are the numbers of men and woman equal in the end? > > And in the other two, they want marriage, but what is the gender balance? The first one is slightly female dominant, I think. Like 8/7. The other two are one male and two females. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440/184 "2012-07-17T14:59:37Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > I have read the thread. If you have read the thread, and your response was STILL a regurgitation of the same tired “oh, think of the poor harem women!” that has been shot down a half-dozen times, I don’t think you have anything useful to contribute anyway. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440/185 "2012-07-17T15:50:21Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > If you have read the thread, and your response was STILL a regurgitation of the same tired “oh, think of the poor harem women!” that has been shot down a half-dozen times, I don’t think you have anything useful to contribute anyway. Actually, the B.C. Supreme Court recently made a major decision on polygamy, and came out something along the line of Elbows’ reasoning: [Reference re: Section 293 of the Criminal Code of Canada, 2011 BCSC 1588](http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/jdb-txt/SC/11/15/2011BCSC1588.htm#SCJTITLEBookMark3753). Just because you have a strong opinion on the matter, does not mean that other opinions have been shot down half a dozen times. There are many types of polygamists or would-be polygamists. In attacking Elbows, you have ignored the problems found in some fundamentalist Mormon communities in north America and some Islam communities in Asia and Africa. Read the B.C. decision (it originated out of the fundamentalist Mormon issue in B.C.), and then come back and discuss the issues, rather than attacking posters for not agreeing with you. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440/186 "2012-07-17T17:50:31Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > Actually, the B.C. Supreme Court recently made a major decision on polygamy, and came out something along the line of Elbows’ reasoning: [Reference re: Section 293 of the Criminal Code of Canada, 2011 BCSC 1588](http://www.courts.gov.bc.ca/jdb-txt/SC/11/15/2011BCSC1588.htm#SCJTITLEBookMark3753). > … > Read the B.C. decision (it originated out of the fundamentalist Mormon issue in B.C.), and then come back and discuss the issues, rather than attacking posters for not agreeing with you. That decision is utterly idiotic. “A small minority is doing something that’s wrong for reasons other than polygamy. Let’s therefore continue to punish anyone who is practicing polygamy.” This is analogous to any number of other really stupid ideas: “Some small number of people can’t handle alcohol, which remains relatively harmless compared to other legal activities when used responsibly as the vast majority does. Therefore, let’s punish alcohol consumption instead of bad behavior.” “Some small number of people can’t use firearms responsibly. Let’s ban firearms!” “Some protesters are loud and inconsiderate. Let’s put all protesters into Free Speech Zones.” Fundamentalist Mormon communities can be easily punished based on forcing young women to do things in the absence of consent. Polygamy is not the wrong here, it’s just the vehicle for the wrong. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440/187 "2012-07-17T18:42:33Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > If you have read the thread, and your response was STILL a regurgitation of the same tired “oh, think of the poor harem women!” that has been shot down a half-dozen times, I don’t think you have anything useful to contribute anyway. In what way has it been shot down? The “poor harem women” really did exist in every officially polygamous society. You say things would be different in a modern, enlightened society but you provide no cites at all aside from personal anecdotes. I think that human nature doesn’t change so easily. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440/188 "2012-07-17T19:01:01Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > In what way has it been shot down? The “poor harem women” really did exist in every officially polygamous society. You say things would be different in a modern, enlightened society but you provide no cites at all aside from personal anecdotes. I think that human nature doesn’t change so easily. It’s not really a question of human nature, though. Women really are in control of their own destinies to a far, far greater degree than they were even 100 years ago. The situation everyone keeps wailing about, with guys enslaving dozens of women in a harem, depends entirely on said women lacking the ability to tell the guy where to shove it. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440/189 "2012-07-17T19:35:12Z")
> [@suranyi](#): > > In what way has it been shot down? The “poor harem women” really did exist in every officially polygamous society. You say things would be different in a modern, enlightened society but you provide no cites at all aside from personal anecdotes. I think that human nature doesn’t change so easily. Which is why women don’t have the vote, don’t work outside the home, and are generally happy with their lot in life as baby factories in the modern democracies. Got it. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440/190 "2012-07-17T21:57:35Z")
No, Zeriel, it is that in western democracies women for the most part have the ability to make their own decisions (albeit they tend to get paid less and have difficulty breaking into certain occupations), but there are also significant communities within these nations in which the women are very much unable to make their own decisions. For example, herein Canada, we have a lot of first generation immigrants, many of whom come from highly patriarchal cultures. Thus we have a problem with honour killings in some Muslim, Sikh and Hindu communities. Simply being in Canada does not immediately solve the problem of severe gender oppression. Give it a generation or two, and the problem fades away as the families integrate into Canadian culture, but for the first generation, often there is little integration. Now let’s apply the concept of isolation within a highly patriarchal culture to polygamy in Canada – specifically fundamentalist Mormons and Muslims immigrants. The fundamentalist Mormons deliberately isolate themselves from Canadian culture, to the degree that they are geographically separate, have their own schools, do not intereact much with nearby communities, and ship in teenage girls from the USA to be brides to their patriarchs. Muslim immigrants are isolated due to language and finances. Often they find the support that they need to establish themselves in Canada in Muslim communities, where the cultural norms of their original country still apply. Muslim women who immigrate to Canada from cultures that are severely gender biased are unable to simply get up and leave their families, and instead continue social and family life much as they had in their original country. The "poor harem women"problem is real in Canada. At issue is how we try to deal with the problem. Obviously there is no single solution. One approach has been to criminalize polygamy. This falls short, for with the rise of acceptance of unmarried people living together in conjugal relationships, it is no big deal for there to be poly relationships in which the parties are married in everything but name. While I respect the BC Chief Justice’s analysis of the problem, I am concerned that it does little to deal with the underlying problem, for prohibiting polygamy will not prevent cultural isolation. In a perfect world, we would accept polygamous marriages, and thereby be more socially and financialy accomodating of distict cultures, which in turn would make it easier for people in those cultures to relate to the Canadian mainstream, and by doing so, be in a better position to reject severe gender inequity. We do not live in a perfect world. What we do live in is an overall culture that had matured to the point that women are almost equal, and for the most part can make their own decisions. We look around at “poor harem women” cultures, and do not want people in Canada to be subject to such inequity. We do not want women from those cultures to continue to be subjugated when the move to Canada, but we find that for the first generation here, they remain subjugated by their own families and their own relocated communities. ---
**Author:** ![Untoward\_Parable](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/51bf81/32.png) [@Untoward\_Parable](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Untoward_Parable)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440/191 "2012-07-17T22:06:20Z")
Ya dude if you want some hippie love triangle thing go for it, but if you start collecting wives, raising children, creating/modifying/adopting religion that endorses polygamy, oppress said wives ect don’t expect me not to shoot you in the face if I get the chance. (or just support government interventions) Don’t ask for government endorsement by marriage for messed up family structures, they’re not stopping you from having 3-100 ways or having free love arrangements and anything more structural is an abomination to rationality and human rights. ---
**Author:** ![Dunkelheit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dunkelheit/32/248_2.png) [@Dunkelheit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunkelheit)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440/192 "2012-07-17T23:18:09Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > True, like I said, my sample is very small. But are you trying to claim that of the other “non LDS non Harem” Poly communities that _most_ of the relationships\* that want a legal marriage\* are _more guys than girls_ in the set? > > Yes, I know that\* that\* “Poly” community is mostly open minded pretty nice people, with few (if any) harems. But you can’t be trying to tell me that it’s _mostly_ guy-guy-girl. I doubt if it’s even 50%. Nobody has been claiming that it’s MOSTLY “guy guy girl”, just that it’s NOT mostly individual men with harems of women, and that poly women DON’T just agree to have multiple partners because that’s what the guys want, which are the two main erroneous claims being addressed here. Of the polyglots I know personally-in-real-life (including mine), the females are at least as likely to have multiple partners as the males if not more so (such as mine), though some of those partners may also be female (not mine). Of the ones I’ve seen in online communities, though I haven’t done the math as such (and can’t be arsed, as you wouldn’t accept my “anecdotal evidence” anyway), I have seen exactly zero “harems”, and have seen no glaring imbalance in the numbers of men vs women with multiple partners. As to how many of them want legal polygamous marriage, that I don’t know and have made no claims regarding. Does there have to be a critical mass before it’s even contemplated? What percentage would that be in your opinion? Would that be percentage of polyglots or percentage of individuals? ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [July 17, 2012, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440/193 "2012-07-17T23:28:34Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > It’s not really wrong, but there is no compelling argument, that I see, to make it legal. You’ve provided the compelling argument yourself! (Hint - it’s in the first few words of this quote) ---
**Author:** ![elbows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b3f665/32.png) [@elbows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elbows)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440/194 "2012-07-18T00:18:19Z")
Way to misrepresent what I said! If you’d taken all I said, instead of just the portion you liked, I said there were several compelling reasons to keep it illegal. But you just wanted to get your zinger in, so, good on ya, job well done. Didn’t fool anyone. > [@](#): > > If you have read the thread, and your response was STILL a regurgitation of the same tired “oh, think of the poor harem women!” that has been shot down a half-dozen times, I don’t think you have anything useful to contribute anyway. Again with the misrepresentation, my point was there is no compelling reason to make it legal. Anyone who want to live this way, can do so in the ways they presently are. The only people I see being prosecuted are those involved in transporting underaged girls over borders to marry older men, and other forms of abuse. I like that protection being there. Again, not that it matters, you’re just looking for an excuse to ignore anyone who doesn’t agree with you. Also doesn’t fool anyone, by the way! ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440/195 "2012-07-18T02:17:10Z")
> [@Muffin](#): > > We do not want women from those cultures to continue to be subjugated when the move to Canada, but we find that for the first generation here, they remain subjugated by their own families and their own relocated communities. > [@Untoward\_Parable](#): > > Ya dude if you want some hippie love triangle thing go for it, but if you start collecting wives, raising children, creating/modifying/adopting religion that endorses polygamy, oppress said wives ect don’t expect me not to shoot you in the face if I get the chance. (or just support government interventions) I agree completely that anyone coercing or oppressing women or endangering children should be punished severely. What does that have to do with polygamous marriage, again? They certainly don’t seem to have any problem doing it in their highly limited communities with polygamous marriage illegal. > [@](#): > > anything more structural is an abomination to rationality and human rights. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440/196 "2012-07-18T02:24:30Z")
> [@Dunkelheit](#): > > Nobody has been claiming that it’s MOSTLY “guy guy girl”, just that it’s NOT mostly individual men with harems of women, and that poly women DON’T just agree to have multiple partners because that’s what the guys want, which are the two main erroneous claims being addressed here. > > Of the polyglots I know personally-in-real-life (including mine), the females are at least as likely to have multiple partners as the males if not more so (such as mine), though some of those partners may also be female (not mine). Well, you have to admit your sort of "Open marriage with borders’ is a trifle unusual. So, let us take your claim that it is 50/50. And let us agree that those weird LDS or Moslem harems are much more common. Then, even leaving aside that not many in your sort of Poly would seek a legal marriage- that still means that allowing Poly marriages would decrease the pool of women, since my WAG is that those weird LDS or Moslem harems outnumber your Poly relationships at least 10-1, and your type don’t take extra single men out. See, since your type of Poly is pretty equal, it doesn’t offset the much larger number of single males left mateless by the weird LDS or Moslem harem setups. So, while I agree that your type of Poly isn’t going to increase the number of single men by any significant amount, it sure ain’t going to decrease them either. Thus, as was pointed out by many others- Poly marriages\* will \*lead to a large unfair decrease in the number of available women… even tho I concede your type won;t affect that number by much. The math is inescapeable. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440/197 "2012-07-18T02:55:50Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > And let us agree that those weird LDS or Moslem harems are much more common. … since my WAG is that those weird LDS or Moslem harems outnumber your Poly relationships at least 10-1 Cite? > [@](#): > > The math is inescapeable. Except for the fact that you made every single number up, sure, it’s inescapable. ---
**Author:** ![Dunkelheit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dunkelheit/32/248_2.png) [@Dunkelheit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunkelheit)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440/198 "2012-07-18T12:18:44Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, you have to admit your sort of "Open marriage with borders’ is a trifle unusual. So, let us take your claim that it is 50/50. And let us agree that those weird LDS or Moslem harems are much more common. Cite for the numbers of harems? My sort of whatever-you-choose-to-call-it is not at all unusual within the extant poly community in the Western world as far as I have seen, and I don’t agree that “weird LDS or Moslem harems” are more common in the Western world. They may be more visible, but that’s not the same thing. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Thus, as was pointed out by many others- Poly marriages\* will \*lead to a large unfair decrease in the number of available women… even tho I concede your type won;t affect that number by much. The math is inescapeable. Not necessarily, because those single guys could find one of the many poly women who will take multiple males, and hook up with them. There’s not a limit on the number of men a woman can have, except what her individual levels of energy and attention can accommodate. The math is not inescapable because you haven’t actually shown any math. Your “weird LDS and Moslem harems” will only remove those women who are already LDS or Moslem and prone to accepting the sort of repressive culture and lifestyle that implies, who are largely not “available” to the larger population of men in the Western world to begin with because of that repression. The rest of us are more emancipated than that, and can choose our own mates with impunity. But we’re still not pies to be divided up amongst the male population, so some of you will remain single no matter how many of us are available. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440/199 "2012-07-18T14:49:57Z")
> [@Dunkelheit](#): > > Cite for the numbers of harems? My sort of whatever-you-choose-to-call-it is not at all unusual within the extant poly community in the Western world as far as I have seen, and I don’t agree that “weird LDS or Moslem harems” are more common in the Western world. They may be more visible, but that’s not the same thing. I will say this: I don’t have scientific numbers, but one polyamory/polygamy dating and forum cite I frequent claims ~23k active members (defined as "logged in within the last year), whereas Wikipedia tells me that between the two major plural-marriage-supporting LDS groups (FLDS and AUB) there are an estimated 20,000 members. So I find DrDeth’s WAG of 10-1 a little…unsupported. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2012, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440/200 "2012-07-18T15:51:43Z")
> [@Ulfreida](#): > > If you can find _ **any women** _ who think polygamy would be great for them personally, who aren’t saying that out of powerlessness and poverty, then you have a case. Otherwise, it’s just the same old thing men have always wanted, that women have had to accept. I remember reading somewhere (yeah, not a good source), that there was a group of women in Rwanda or someplace nearby that was lobbying for legalization of polygamy because too many eligible men had been killed as a result of the violence in the country and thus there was a heavy gender imbalance in the population. They figured that sharing a husband beat having none at all. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-polygamy-really-wrong/626440.md?page=11)