Properly done (disclosure, drafting, independent legal advice, and generally being equitable) prenups are worth their weight in feathers with respect to custody, access and child support. They may or may not hold up concering spousal support. They usually will hold up on property.
I don’t think it is wrong per se. If people want to be weirdos, they should have that right.
I don’t want the state to sanction it though.
its not wrong in small numbers, with no children involved, but once it becomes a way of life it’s just devastating to community and culture. Suddenly 90% of men are outcasts to allow the remaining 10% to have 2-50 wives each and the women in these relationships are diminished and oppressed. You wind up with a tribal society of patriarch driven families that resembles not at all a society you would actually want to live in. It’s fascistic and undemocratic to maintain itself.
Have you, like, read the thread?
You sure implied it when you said:
You may have said something about multiple wives being a mark of status or virility in one of your other posts, but not in the post I quoted, and that is not what I was responding to with my comment about how the world has changed. I was responding to this:
Exuse me? If you need what I said to spell out the connection to morality then I really don’t know how to help you. Polygamy causes massive suffering anywhere it exists broadly. Massive suffering = immoral.
But have you read the thread? I asked that question for a reason - that reason being that we have, in fact, already discussed these issues.
Okay. Let me know about the things you do that I find weird, so I can make sure to advocate that the state remove its sanction from them. We’ll start with “binding yourself to one person, ostensibly for life”–how messed up is that?
Read the thread. There is a severe and profound difference between “polygyny in a society where women are powerless or effectively chattel” and “polygamy in a society where women are for the most part of equal agency as men”.
Pay close attention to the parts where those of us who are actually polygamous/polyamorous in today’s US society have not seen any examples of the ridiculous historical strawman of “one man, dozens of women” in any active community except for the backwards cult of the FLDS, which I daresay we find more wrong than you do.
You know, just saying does not make it so. And saying it over and over doe snot make it a established fact. As you dudes admitted you have no cites, no numbers.
So, as i said, I know 4 poly “couples” all are 2 women one man. (I knew of one relationship the other way, so I am not saying they are in any way rare.)
So what you’re going to have to tell me is that you dudes know dozens and dozens of poly relationships. And of those dozens, most want to be cemented in marriage. And that those sort of poly relationships are not uncommon. And that in your sort of poly relationship, the one where there are multiple guys, one woman, VASTLY outnumber the relationships where it’s the other way around.
And, sorry, i call bullshit. I’ll agree that outside of those LDS and Moslem harems, the one guy many wives is pretty rare. But they are there, they are well documented and they are not rare. And they want to be cemented in a legal marriage, by and large.
So what you will have to show is that there are more poly relationships that
-
Are more men than women (I will go along with 50/50, even tho my small sample size shows otherwise)
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Want to be cemented into legal marriage (more than half the “couples” I know do)
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Outnumber the “LDS faction” by a lot. (that’s a big stretch)
Until then (and good luck with that) the rest of us are just to have to base our perceptions of Polygamy on what has been documented, and no amount of snarky “Have you read the thread” comments are going to change my opinion.
Look, I know many people out here in the free-thinking community, and the poly “couples” I know seem to be at least if not more happy & well adjusted than the “two-fer” relationships. And sure, I know of no “harems” among them. But somehow I doubt they run 90%+ “multiple men one woman” to a set.
So, let me ask these three questions:
How many poly relationships doe you know well?
How many of these want to cement the relationship in marriage?
of those- in what % do the men outnumber the women, and are there any with one woman and a harem of guys?
Three. In one, the person involved I know, is female, and in a long distance relationship with many guys. But the guys also have at least one girl of their own. The other two want marriage, this one doesn’t.
It’s like Marilyn Monroe. She might date a few guys, but most of the guys who date her, also have their real steady.
So, that’s one relationship with several guys and several girls, and no marriage wanted? Are the numbers of men and woman equal in the end?
And in the other two, they want marriage, but what is the gender balance?
I’m not seeing the need. How many polygamists are out there, do you figure? And in what way, is what they are doing now, failing them? He marries the first, and the rest willingly join in. If, in fact, as the OP would posit, everyone is a willing participant, no one is being damaged, what’s their issue?
Officials need to be able to weight in, in my opinion, when it goes from being what it ‘ought’, to what it ‘can’ turn into - subjugation of young women, raised in isolation, married off to a much older man, with little option. I have no problem with that being monitored and ended. And don’t want to see it legalized for that reason.
I don’t see any pressing need to make this legal. If you want to cohabitate with several women, and they’re willing, raise a big family, I don’t see anything stopping you. Declare paternity of your children and they’ll receive all they’re due. Personally I could advocate for requiring them to send their children to public schools, at least for three years. Especially if they live in any kind of isolating sect.
I think this affects only a small minority of people, who are only seriously hindered by current regulations when they mistreat women and girls. It’s not really wrong, but there is no compelling argument, that I see, to make it legal.
If just one of you latecomers would actually bother reading the thread, I might actually shit a real brick.
Your numbers, I can’t help but notice, are equally uncited.
True, like I said, my sample is very small. But are you trying to claim that of the other “non LDS non Harem” Poly communities that most of the relationships* that want a legal marriage* are more guys than girls in the set?
Yes, I know that* that* “Poly” community is mostly open minded pretty nice people, with few (if any) harems. But you can’t be trying to tell me that it’s mostly guy-guy-girl. I doubt if it’s even 50%.
It’s MOSTLY lines, as far as I can tell. Group single households are rare, period.
Ok. Fine. But of the “lines” that want to get married, **do the guys outnumber the girls by a large %? **
I’ve known, over the years maybe half a dozen poly families. I don’t know any, in any configuration, who are pushing for legal marriage to more than one person (all that I’ve remained in touch with are pushing for gay marriage, but don’t see it as a path to poly marriage).
Two are families that have remained in the same configuration now for decades.
Two imploded, I long ago lost contact with any individual in the family and have no idea if the people in the family are still poly.
Two straddle the open/poly line - meaningful relationships, but not making lifelong commitments to anyone other than their primary spouse. These folks aren’t looking for marriage.
All involve people who are not straight.