# Is porn degrading the woman's image? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 27, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187 "2012-04-27T22:32:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/141 "2012-05-01T19:39:12Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > ? It seems odd to be so categorical about this. Don’t most men like having their balls licked, for example? And don’t most men nowadays still not shave or wax their balls? > > So isn’t that pretty much saying “I don’t mind making **her** put up with licking fur, but I do mind having to put up with it myself”? > > ISTM that if it were so taken-for-granted that pretty much **everyone** likes smooth genitalia in their partners because it’s more pleasant than “licking fur”, then most men would want to depilate their own genitalia, just as they want their partners to depilate theirs. My wife asked me \*not \*to shave. I have complied. She has been shaved since before I met her, I have never asked her to. I must admit, I like the look and feel. If she was uncomfortable with it, it would not be an issue if she stopped. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/142 "2012-05-02T00:29:19Z")
Tough. Men are **much more** degraded by constant male bashing in our society. In both cases First Amandment rules. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/143 "2012-05-02T00:34:38Z")
You’re correct, Citizen. How do you propose we let the US Congress, for example, learn what it’s like to live life as a man so that this problem can be dealt with? ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/144 "2012-05-02T00:37:04Z")
If there is real freedom – and Internet would bring complete freedom, then everyone would have equal opportunity to be offensive. I believe any regulation would cause harm. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/145 "2012-05-02T00:42:05Z")
If internet were here, people would have limitless douchebag potential. I believe lack of douches online is harmful too. I am curious and would like to subscribe to your newsletter and/or pamphlet. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Cymbeline](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_cymbeline/32/9244_2.png) [@Green\_Cymbeline](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Cymbeline)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/146 "2012-05-02T01:24:07Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > How many people do you know, who aren’t cats, who like licking fur? If you’re licking “fur,” you’re doing it wrong. The clitoris, vulva and vagina are hairless. I suspect you know this and are trying to be flippant by comparing a woman’s genitals to a cat. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/147 "2012-05-02T01:31:27Z")
> [@Green\_Cymbeline](#): > > If you’re licking “fur,” you’re doing it wrong. Well, not if you’re licking unshaven balls: the crucial bits definitely **are** hirsute in that case. But that, plus the, er, testimony from posters such as **Procrustus** and **Testy** in recent posts, does confirm that it’s too sweeping and dismissive to assume the universal appeal of hairless genitals with a quip like “How many people who aren’t cats like licking fur?” A preference for hairless genitals, in men **or** women, is **not** a near-universal fact of life that can be safely assumed to apply to almost anybody who isn’t a cat. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/148 "2012-05-02T04:10:25Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > You’re correct, Citizen. > How do you propose we let the US Congress, for example, learn what it’s like to live life as a man so that this problem can be dealt with? First we much teach them how to be human beings. ---
**Author:** ![Chuck\_Norris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@Chuck\_Norris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chuck_Norris)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/149 "2012-05-02T05:59:33Z")
> [@Lobohan](#): > > Nah, you’re completely off base there. Porn is made so men can fap. It has nothing to do with an overall demeaning of women any more than kung-fu movies have to do with advocating assault on the Chinese. > > It’s like my family motto says: > \*Fapping. If you don’t have lady pictues, it’s slightly more difficult.™ > \* Reminds me of my own family motto: “If you don’t stop watching me fap, I’ll chuck Norris all over you!” ---
**Author:** ![Chuck\_Norris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@Chuck\_Norris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chuck_Norris)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/150 "2012-05-02T06:19:07Z")
To return to the original question, I would say that “porn” (which involves female participants) is not specifically degrading to woman. There is plenty of degrading porn out there; a woman being gang banged by hordes of men I would say was degrading to women, but as I’m sure I read earlier, I find the men involved manage to degrade their own sex in equal measures. I think there is an argument to be had for what could be considered “healthy” pornography, i.e. the sexual act being filmed and displayed for the enjoyment of men and women alike to fap over. The problem is that many people have deviant sexual tastes and enjoy acts such as owning or being owned in a sexual manner. A man with a gimp mask on, an apple jammed in his mouth with his hands tied behind his back, feet in the stirrups and Mattesons sausage jammed half way up digestive tract for example, I would say was degrading to men! But if that’s what he’s game for and other people like to watch, then who am I to try and set the rules and say that this is “degrading”. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/151 "2012-05-02T06:49:43Z")
> [@Testy](#): > > What’s up with that? Women are continually shooting for the size 0 or whatever and complaining like hell about it. (reasonably so, IMHO) But why are they doing this at all? Men don’t like it. The fashion industry may, but who gives a rat’s ass what they think. The fashion/beauty industry constantly pushes this ideal through women’s magazines, which most women have a hell of a lot more exposure to than they do porn. I’m continually amazed at how this is overlooked by some third-wave anti-porn feminists (the second-wavers at least tended to be equally critical of both industries). I’ve even begun to see some anti-pornistas argue that porn actually is worse, which I can only attribute to the fact that a lot of feminists these days like fashion and beauty and don’t want to implicate themselves. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/152 "2012-05-02T09:36:42Z")
> [@Chuck Norris](#): > > The problem is that many people have deviant sexual tastes and enjoy acts such as owning or being owned in a sexual manner. The issue with this is that people can only really voluntarily perform such acts if they enter into contracts willingly. When their means of subsistence are dependant on performing such acts, I don’t believe there is fully informed consent. Now one may apply such premises to other occupations and conclude that most forms of employment are degrading, but society as a whole has a special plea for treating sex differently. Perhaps some of it is related to religious morality. At any rate, we collectively punish rape much more harshly than battery. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > if censorious types DID succeed in stamping out porn, they would simply move on to suppressing sexuality itself. Slippery slope. > [@Evil Captor](#): > > Also, most opposition to porn comes from religious types who have absorbed these memes, though few of them will admit that nowadays. Poisoning the well. ---
**Author:** ![Chuck\_Norris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/85e7bf/32.png) [@Chuck\_Norris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chuck_Norris)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/153 "2012-05-02T14:00:14Z")
[QUOTE=gamerunknown15024318] **The issue with this is that people can only really voluntarily perform such acts if they enter into contracts willingly. When their means of subsistence are dependant on performing such acts, I don’t believe there is fully informed consent.** Of course people consent to entering these contracts willingly. Pornography is likely very convenient because A. it pays fairly well and B. it is not a full time job. Just because the alternative is working long hours for perhaps lower pay rates doesn’t mean you have no choice in the matter! \*\* Now one may apply such premises to other occupations and conclude that most forms of employment are degrading \*\* How so? Most forms of important are not degrading in the slightest. \*\*Perhaps some of it is related to religious morality. At any rate, we collectively punish rape much more harshly than battery. \*\* Where is the relevance in this? We are talking about the morality of pornography, which is not related to charges for assault as far as I can tell. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/154 "2012-05-02T16:45:50Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > The fashion/beauty industry constantly pushes this ideal through women’s magazines, which most women have a hell of a lot more exposure to than they do porn. I’m continually amazed at how this is overlooked by some third-wave anti-porn feminists (the second-wavers at least tended to be equally critical of both industries). I’ve even begun to see some anti-pornistas argue that porn actually is worse, which I can only attribute to the fact that a lot of feminists these days like fashion and beauty and don’t want to implicate themselves. **ruadh** Thank you for the explanation. I don’t follow feminist thought but I’m not understanding why this continues to be a problem. Women complain of being “forced” to follow certain fashion dictates but instead of simply opting out and telling them to stuff it, they continue to blindly follow along, hating the fashion industry for their standards and hating themselves for not living up to them. Most men don’t care for anorexic women so it isn’t \*their \*fault. The fashion industry could and would change in a heartbeat if the women who are their customers demanded it so the situation really isn’t \*their \*fault either. Who’s left? At some point this starts looking like a self inflicted injury. On the porn question, it is nothing more than wild sex with incredible looking women and without consequences or responsibilities and a lot of guys like that as a temporary change. It is nothing more than fantasy. As far as the “degrading women” part of it goes, some of it sure seems that way and I don’t really find it arousing. All the choking and spitting and the like seems gratuitous and stupid to me. If a guy’s fantasy is choking women and spitting on them then the porn is not the problem. OTOH, there seems to be an endless supply of women perfectly willing to be degraded for a bit of cash. Admittedly, it is probably harder to do than it looks, but it is still easier, more interesting and independent, and pays a hell of a lot better than working most 9 to 5 jobs. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/155 "2012-05-02T18:03:32Z")
> [@Chuck Norris](#): > > Of course people consent to entering these contracts willingly. Pornography is likely very convenient because A. it pays fairly well and B. it is not a full time job. Just because the alternative is working long hours for perhaps lower pay rates doesn’t mean you have no choice in the matter! The choices are limited due to the endemic form of property and rent. Without those features, we can meaningfully discuss consent. > [@Chuck Norris](#): > > How so? Most forms of important are not degrading in the slightest. I was anticipating an angle: “most people work at jobs they wouldn’t do if they didn’t have bills to pay or risk starvation, your argument that porn and prostitution are different is special pleading”. Society as a whole thinks that certain actions committed without the consent of the participant are worse than others and sex is a primary feature. If one cedes the premise that discussions of consent are meaningless in a society designed so that it hampers rational decisions, then the special plea applies in particular to questions of sex. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/156 "2012-05-02T19:26:52Z")
> [@Chuck\_Norris](#): > > How so? Most forms of important are not degrading in the slightest. Of course they are. You take a human being, you get them to agree to be a machine that makes hamburgers and runs a cash register and asks “Would you like fries with that?” for a set number of hours and days in exchange for money. Unless you honestly believe that the highest form of human expression is the dull, routine, repetitive actions that characterize most jobs, of COURSE it is degrading. You take a human being and make something less of them, something useful to you perhaps, but still … a tool. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/157 "2012-05-02T19:44:50Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Of course they are. You take a human being, you get them to agree to be a machine that makes hamburgers and runs a cash register and asks “Would you like fries with that?” for a set number of hours and days in exchange for money. Unless you honestly believe that the highest form of human expression is the dull, routine, repetitive actions that characterize most jobs, of COURSE it is degrading. You take a human being and make something less of them, something useful to you perhaps, but still … a tool. **Evil Captor** I disagree strongly. People (in general) do what they are capable of to acquire money for the things they want. If slinging burgers is the best you can do, then how is it degrading? Yes it is boring and a lot of people suspect they could do something more important. I wonder how many of them actually could. At the end of the day, somebody still has to sling burgers or haul away the trash or do some other boring and unpleasant but necessary task. A lot of people that are terribly dissatisfied with their jobs remind me of Jim Croce’s song, Working at the Carwash Blues. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/158 "2012-05-02T19:56:53Z")
> [@Adam Smith](#): > > The man whose whole life is spent in performing a few simple operations, of which the effects are perhaps always the same, or very nearly the same, has no occasion to exert his understanding or to exercise his invention in finding out expedients for removing difficulties which never occur. He naturally loses, therefore, the habit of such exertion, and generally becomes as stupid and ignorant as it is possible for a human creature to become. The torpor of his mind renders him not only incapable of relishing or bearing a part in any rational conversation, but of conceiving any generous, noble, or tender sentiment, and consequently of forming any just judgment concerning many even of the ordinary duties of private life. > [@Testy](#): > > I wonder how many of them actually could. Depends on whether or not they believe in dispositional fatalism. ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/159 "2012-05-02T20:15:30Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Depends on whether or not they believe in dispositional fatalism. **gamerunknown** You got me on that one. Is dispositional fatalism a technical term for someone that believes they are where they are supposed to be regardless of how awful that is? If that is the case, it would seem more of a problem for a councilor or the like. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/160 "2012-05-02T20:27:02Z")
> [@Testy](#): > > **Evil Captor** > > I disagree strongly. People (in general) do what they are capable of to acquire money for the things they want. If slinging burgers is the best you can do, then how is it degrading? Yes it is boring and a lot of people suspect they could do something more important. I wonder how many of them actually could. At the end of the day, somebody still has to sling burgers or haul away the trash or do some other boring and unpleasant but necessary task. > A lot of people that are terribly dissatisfied with their jobs remind me of Jim Croce’s song, Working at the Carwash Blues. > > Regards > > Testy What do you think of mothers who raise children without any compensation? Worth what they are paid, are they? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187.md?page=9)