# Is porn degrading the woman's image? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 27, 2012, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187 "2012-04-27T22:32:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2012, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/161 "2012-05-02T20:51:51Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > What do you think of mothers who raise children without any compensation? Worth what they are paid, are they? **Evil Captor** Why are they doing it? Did someone force them to have children? I’m not even sure how the question of payment is even valid. Personally speaking, I’d rather be raised by someone that does it because she wants to rather than because she expects to be paid. And by the way, I love the rhetorical question BS. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![QuarkChild](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c5a1d2/32.png) [@QuarkChild](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuarkChild)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/162 "2012-05-03T00:08:42Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > And when their results are finally published, we will all think to ourselves, “Why didn’t I write that grant proposal?” It would probably get rejected by your Institutional Review Board. 🙂 [I’m kidding but this actually happened–there was a study described in some pop sociology book, possibly **Predictably Irrational** , that had to be done independently of a university because their IRB rejected it. The IRB committee was apparently concerned that asking men to look at porn for a research study could elicit traumatic memories of past sexual abuse.] Fun fact: I’m currently serving on an IRB. So far we haven’t gotten any porn-related proposals. If we ever do, I’m not planning on rejecting it on the grounds that men will be traumatized from looking at porn. ---
**Author:** ![BlackKnight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eb8c5e/32.png) [@BlackKnight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlackKnight)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/163 "2012-05-03T04:08:15Z")
Since pornography is mostly consumed by men, attempts to censor pornography are attempts to control male sexuality. The burden of proof weighs very heavily upon those who would do so. So far in this thread, we have a bunch of "I heard"s and “everyone knows”. Oh, and a link to that rigorous peer-reviewed journal “Psychology Today”\*. :dubious: So, is there any _actual evidence_ that pornography is having negative overall effects on women (or men)? I have to ask - who in this thread grew up with Internet pornography available to them? I first got the Internet when I was 13. Some of you talk like you haven’t seen a porno made since some VHS in the 80’s, or are simply unaware of the _variety_ of porn available. I’m wondering if there’s something of a generation gap. The idea that shaved genitals in porn will cause young men to only find shaved genitals attractive is absurd. (I should add that it’s yet to be shown that this is actually a dominant trend. Did somebody watch all the porn on the Internet and count?) Nobody is stuck fapping to a single old magazine hidden under their mattress anymore. If someone sees something in porn that they don’t like, then they will find porn that does not contain that thing. If they see porn they do like, they will seek out more like it. In either case, they will find what they are looking for. Nobody forces them to watch bald cooters until they’re conditioned to get boners for that and only that. If they’re watching primarily shaved genitals then that is simply what they like. \*“Marnia Robinson is a former corporate attorney with degrees from Brown and Yale who writes books about the unwelcome effects of evolutionary biology on intimate relationships and the striking parallels between recent scientific discoveries and traditional sacred-sex texts. Her cross-disciplinary perspective incorporates the insights of psychologists, psychiatrists, neuroscientists, evolutionary biologists, anthropologists and even ancient sages.” ---
**Author:** ![Testy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Testy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Testy)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/164 "2012-05-03T16:07:36Z")
> [@Green\_Cymbeline](#): > > One of the issues I am most concerned about when it comes to the issue of whether porn degrades woman is the trend of a preference for hairless genitals. For the past couple of decades, porn has increasingly featured actresses with shaven or waxed genitals. Men who grew up watching this became conditioned to be attracted to bald vaginas, thus exerting pressure on women to alter the natural state of their private area to be attractive to their mates. I resent this pressure. As a 30-something woman, men my age grew up at the beginning of this trend. I have encountered many anecdotes of men saying they preferred “shaven.” Luckily my last couple of boyfriends were OK with, even had a “fetish” for, my natural state of being, but I assure you this is the exception, not the rule, amongst people of my generation and younger. I think it’s damaging both for the young men who are wired to this preference from watching porn, and for the young women who feel they have to do this to please men. > > From [Wiring Sexual Tastes to Hairless Genitals…Oops!](http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/cupids-poisoned-arrow/201201/wiring-sexual-tastes-hairless-genitalsoops) **Green Cymbeline** I just read your cite about the viewing of porn stars that are shaved or waxed leading to pedophilia. Claiming that “the porn made me do it” seems like a hell of a stretch. Are there any hard numbers on this? From actual studies? It looks like the authors have found a couple of anecdotes and then taken an enormous leap to the conclusion that they wished to make. Is this the state of the art research technique for the anti-porn crowd? To claim that viewing shaved girls wires someone’s brain into a pedophile seems ridiculous and requires a hell of a lot more study (real studies!) before anyone could make that claim with a straight face. Regards Testy ---
**Author:** ![Scupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scupper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scupper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/165 "2012-05-03T18:49:11Z")
Porn availability and variety is way up, rape is way down. Convince me that this is somehow a bad thing because some women _might_ feel like shaving their pubes might be something their partners would like. Is it not just barely possible that the availability of porn has provided a relatively harmless outlet for male sexual aggression, as the [statistics](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2032762) [suggest](http://anthonydamato.law.northwestern.edu/Adobefiles/porn.pdf)? This take on the statistics is routinely derided as a “porn apologist” stance. Counter-arguments, such as the idea that the perception of what constitutes rape has been altered by pornography, thus causing fewer rapes to be reported would seem specious, considering the fact that visual pornography is mainly aimed at men, and men aren’t usually the ones doing the reporting. The other primary argument is that the correlation of the two statistics is specious or illusory. Perhaps that’s true, but if so, what factors _do_ affect decrease in rape and attempted rape? More potential sex offenders in prison? Possibly. But are we imprisoning that many more sex offenders? If so, wouldn’t that indicate that we, as a society have developed a less tolerant attitude toward rape during the same period that porn has become widely available? Ignoring the apparent “more porn = less rape” correlation, most arguments then shift to porn causing poor body image among women or bad attitudes toward women among the men who watch it. Aside from the fact that statistics don’t show men _acting_ on those beliefs, what conclusion are we supposed to draw from them? That a decrease in rape and attempted rape isn’t worth it? ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/166 "2012-05-03T21:37:36Z")
> [@Scupper](#): > > This take on the statistics is routinely derided as a “porn apologist” stance. No, it’s derided as _post hoc ergo propter hoc_ reasoning. The burden of proof is on the person to provide a theoretical framework in which confounding factors are eliminated. As doing so is not ethically possible, any spurious correlations could be made. One could just as easily claim that higher rates of mobile phone ownership correlate to fewer rapes or that increased usage of social networking or internet dating sites correlate to fewer rapes, since both of those have gone up as rape has declined. What those cites do demonstrate is that increased usage of pornography does not correlate to increased number of rapes. ---
**Author:** ![Scupper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Scupper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scupper)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2012, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/167 "2012-05-03T21:58:26Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > No, it’s derided as _post hoc ergo propter hoc_ reasoning. You may rightly criticize it as such, however that is not how it is _routinely_ derided. > [@gamerunknown](#): > > The burden of proof is on the person to provide a theoretical framework in which confounding factors are eliminated. As doing so is not ethically possible, any spurious correlations could be made. True. Is it incorrect, then, to say that something that can’t even be particularly well quantified, such as “the woman’s image” suffers from the same faulty logic when people blame porn for it? > [@gamerunknown](#): > > One could just as easily claim that higher rates of mobile phone ownership correlate to fewer rapes or that increased usage of social networking or internet dating sites correlate to fewer rapes, since both of those have gone up as rape has declined. Very good point. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/168 "2012-05-04T06:07:19Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > The issue with this is that people can only really voluntarily perform such acts if they enter into contracts willingly. When their means of subsistence are dependant on performing such acts, I don’t believe there is fully informed consent. Now one may apply such premises to other occupations and conclude that most forms of employment are degrading, but society as a whole has a special plea for treating sex differently. Perhaps some of it is related to religious morality. At any rate, we collectively punish rape much more harshly than battery. But rape involves sexual _violence_, which brings in an element that distinguishes it from sexual acts entered into without (actual or threatened) violence. The need for subsistence cannot be considered violence in itself, otherwise a person who engages in theft or drug dealing to fulfil that need could use a duress defence and society certainly wouldn’t stand for that. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/169 "2012-05-04T06:16:29Z")
> [@Testy](#): > > I don’t follow feminist thought but I’m not understanding why this continues to be a problem. Women complain of being “forced” to follow certain fashion dictates but instead of simply opting out and telling them to stuff it, they continue to blindly follow along, hating the fashion industry for their standards and hating themselves for not living up to them. Most men don’t care for anorexic women so it isn’t \*their \*fault. The fashion industry could and would change in a heartbeat if the women who are their customers demanded it so the situation really isn’t \*their \*fault either. Who’s left? At some point this starts looking like a self inflicted injury. It’s like any other kind of peer pressure (including the kind that men face, to display suitably masculine behaviour). It _can_ be resisted, but it’s not necessarily always easy to. ---
**Author:** ![DukemNukem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/74df32/32.png) [@DukemNukem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DukemNukem)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/170 "2012-05-04T08:38:48Z")
> [@Testy](#): > > **Evil Captor** > > Why are they doing it? Did someone force them to have children? I’m not even sure how the question of payment is even valid. Personally speaking, I’d rather be raised by someone that does it because she wants to rather than because she expects to be paid. And by the way, I love the rhetorical question BS. > > Regards > > Testy You think that’s rhetorical? Can I call you comrade? It seems you’re Russian to conclusions. Women are expected to take care of the children and sick individuals in the family. The government expects them to (its the law) which means they won’t be able to work and they to look after others. I don’t think you understand what the person asked because of that confusing response that looks like you pulled out of your ass. Before I take apart your argument and talk about the context of the individuals question, lets talk about what you wrote and the logic behind it. For the sake of argument, let’s you would raised by someone who wants to and doesn’t want to be paid. Being a parent is a full time job and is one of the most difficult things to do properly. So where would the income come from? Secondly, why on earth do you think being paid will skew how people are? Now for the argument. It’s a cultural expectation in ALL cultures to have children. Do you agree? Are people forced in North America? No. Is there pressure? Yes. The government expects children, society as whole does as do most parents from their own children. Could we agree upon that? Sorry I should’nt have wrote that first paragraph since it seems that I misread what you wrote since once a person says “personally speaking” that means they get to have immunity from ignorance and logic and defy it to express their point. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![DukemNukem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/74df32/32.png) [@DukemNukem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DukemNukem)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/171 "2012-05-04T08:54:26Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > There is no NEED for humor, but it can be fun nonetheless. > > To argue the point seriously, I think the dislike of porn stems from an outdated desire to control men and women’s sexuality. The only way to ensure that a woman was bearing your kids was to marry her and keep her from fucking anyone else. Hence women had to be chaste outside marriage. The Catholic Church in the West actually took this one step further and saw sex as an evil thing necessary for procreation, but not to be indulged in for any other reason. (As Paul said, “It is better to marry than to burn,” i.e., sexual intercourse within marriage was PREFERABLE to going to hell, but not necessarily a good thing in and of itself.) Women who had sex with just any man were whores, evil. etc. Porn celebrates sex for its own sake, of course, so it’s evil and must be stamped out by this “logic,” but I guarantee you, if censorious types DID succeed in stamping out porn, they would simply move on to suppressing sexuality itself. In Victorian times they were opposed to masturbation itself, and people like Dr. Kellogg of Kellogg’s cereals were devising bizarre SM like devices for young men to wear on the crotches while they slept to prevent them from having nighttime erections (and orgasms). > > Also, most opposition to porn comes from religious types who have absorbed these memes, though few of them will admit that nowadays. > > Basically, I think anti-porn people are literally crazy, obsessed with controlling other people’s sexuality. It has never been recognized as a form of mental illness because of the cultural dominance of anti-porn types historically, but I am confident that someday it will be relegated to the same back bin of history that fear of witches has been. I completely disagree and shortly I will give my evidence. Personally I’m completely against porn, but in no way shape or form is that controlling sexuality. The market for the need is controlled as is the satisfaction of people’s wants. There are plenty of studies that explain why porn is damaging to the brain and life. Not **sex** but just porn. Not only does it hurt how males view women but physically damages the brain receptors that make a person feel great after an oragasm. It desensitizes the individual of which would make them search for more extreme porn to satisfy their craving that leads to addiction. That’s going off topic since it’s not really about the woman (of which is the main topic of the thread) Now as for females, it creates an expectation and it is porn that dictates them. Whether its a certain sex act or a certain appearance. I’ll be posting all the evidence to back up my case later. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 4, 2012, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/172 "2012-05-04T09:07:42Z")
> [@Scupper](#): > > such as “the woman’s image” suffers from the same faulty logic when people blame porn for it? Well, I’ve never subscribed to those arguments. There is a separate contention about modelling though, which I’ve found to be a fairly simple contention: models should match the demographics of the population. When the majority of sales in the shop are size 8, there’s no point using a size 2 model, or whatever the case may be. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2012, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/173 "2012-05-05T16:35:16Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > Well, I’ve never subscribed to those arguments. There is a separate contention about modelling though, which I’ve found to be a fairly simple contention: models should match the demographics of the population. When the majority of sales in the shop are size 8, there’s no point using a size 2 model, or whatever the case may be. It’s done for the same reason that Budweiser commercials feature young, attractive, fit, and tanned men drinking beer and having a good time with friends. Why do that when the target demographic is balding 40 somethings with giant beer guts? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2012, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/174 "2012-05-05T18:15:51Z")
> [@gamerunknown](#): > > No, it’s derided as _post hoc ergo propter hoc_ reasoning. The burden of proof is on the person to provide a theoretical framework in which confounding factors are eliminated. As doing so is not ethically possible, any spurious correlations could be made. One could just as easily claim that higher rates of mobile phone ownership correlate to fewer rapes or that increased usage of social networking or internet dating sites correlate to fewer rapes, since both of those have gone up as rape has declined. What those cites do demonstrate is that increased usage of pornography does not correlate to increased number of rapes. But, as a PRACTICAL matter, one could say, “let’s keep porn around and see if the rape rates stay down.” Unless you don’t care about rape. In which case, you lose all status as an ethical person. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2012, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/175 "2012-05-05T18:21:19Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > But, as a PRACTICAL matter, one could say, “let’s keep porn around and see if the rape rates stay down.” Unless you don’t care about rape. In which case, you lose all status as an ethical person. But that’s silly. You could use that argument for shall issue concealed carry or for anti-smoking laws or state constitutional amendments banning same sex marriage. Should we keep absolutely everything around that has happened since rapes started decreasing, just in case those laws had something to do with it? ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2012, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/176 "2012-05-05T18:26:38Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > But that’s silly. You could use that argument for shall issue concealed carry or for anti-smoking laws or state constitutional amendments banning same sex marriage. Should we keep absolutely everything around that has happened since rapes started decreasing, just in case those laws had something to do with it? Why not? Don’t you care about women being raped? If you ban porn and rape rates go up, what do you say to the women who got raped who would not otherwise have been? “Oops! My bad! Tee-hee! I didn’t really think it was causative … I’m sure you understand that your need to not be raped does not measure up to my need for rigorous logic!” ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/177 "2012-05-05T18:40:09Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Why not? Don’t you care about women being raped? You really aren’t helping your case with this sort of nonsense unless you’re playing Logical Fallacy Bingo, in which case you’re about to sweep the game. I’m ostensibly on your side in opposing any kind of ban on pornography, but you’re not getting anywhere with shrill appeals to emotion. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2012, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/178 "2012-05-05T18:46:53Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Why not? Don’t you care about women being raped? If you ban porn and rape rates go up, what do you say to the women who got raped who would not otherwise have been? “Oops! My bad! Tee-hee! I didn’t really think it was causative … I’m sure you understand that your need to not be raped does not measure up to my need for rigorous logic!” I’m not advocating a ban on porn anymore than I would ban alcohol, cigarettes, junk food, or not calling your mother weekly. Things can be deemed harmful, yet allowed in a free society. But I don’t support keeping porn legal for the sole reason of the ad hoc fallacy that it has reduced rape rates. And no rational policy should be developed on this kind of reasoning. Rape rates have gone down since cell phone use by drivers in cars became popular. Should we repeal these texting and hand held phone bans just in case the use of cell phones while driving had something connected to rape reduction? ---
**Author:** ![Carmady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f04885/32.png) [@Carmady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carmady)\ **Post date:** [May 5, 2012, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/179 "2012-05-05T19:22:40Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > But I don’t support keeping porn legal for the sole reason of the ad hoc fallacy that it has reduced rape rates. And no rational policy should be developed on this kind of reasoning. Rape rates have gone down since cell phone use by drivers in cars became popular. Should we repeal these texting and hand held phone bans just in case the use of cell phones while driving had something connected to rape reduction? There are studies that claim internet porn has reduced rape, though, such as the Clemson University study mentioned [here](http://www.slate.com/articles/arts/everyday_economics/2006/10/how_the_web_prevents_rape.html). It tries to account for other variables. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [May 6, 2012, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187/180 "2012-05-06T10:39:16Z")
Not everyone that agrees (roughly) with the premise of the OP, that a significant amount of porn (even if only a minority) is degrading to women would support a ban on pornography either. The one time I’ve attempted to contact my MP was after a ban on “violent and extreme pornography” was enacted in the UK, which I thought was rather poorly worded. My opposition is probably primarily ideological: I don’t think women should have to have sex in order to provide for their means of subsistence. I want to work towards a society where they no longer have to. Once that’s possible, I don’t really mind if they do so voluntarily and presumably the number of women willing to perform roles they feel are demeaning would be reduced to the masochists. In the meantime I think the burden falls on the consumer to make ethical considerations and to decide whether they’d wish to be on the receiving end of whatever is occurring in the fantasy being performed. Perhaps flagging the videos showing women being abused as inappropriate would help too. Oh, the study by Kendall doesn’t account for mobile phone ownership, which’d be a pretty big factor in the 15-19 category. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-porn-degrading-the-womans-image/620187.md?page=10)