# Is Poverty a sin? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 28, 2000, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poverty-a-sin/34896 "2000-09-28T17:03:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poverty-a-sin/34896/1 "2000-09-28T17:03:05Z")
In his Preface to _Major Barbara_, George Bernard Shaw writes: > [@](#): > > In the millionaire Undershaft [a character in the play] I have represented a man who has become intellectually and spiritually as well as practically concious of the irresistible natural truth which we all abhor and repudiate: to wit, that the greatest of our evils, and the worst of our crimes, is poverty, and that our first duty, to which every other consideration should be sacrificed, is not to be poor. “Poor, but honest,” “the respectable poor,” and such phrases are as intolerable and as immoral as “drunken but amiable,” “fraudulent but a good after-dinner speaker,” “splendidly criminal,” or the like. Security, the chief pretense of civilization, cannot exist where the worst of dangers, the danger of poverty, hangs over everone’s head, and where the alleged protection of out persons from violence is only an accidental result of the existence of a police force whose real business is to force the poor man to see his children starve whilst idle people overfeed pet dogs with the money that might feed and clothe them. Seeing this play forced my brain to move in directions it had never gone before. I am still working on what I think of it. What does this illustrous body think of Shaw’s ideas? ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poverty-a-sin/34896/2 "2000-09-28T17:16:09Z")
Well, the [Catholic Church has this to say](javascript:decide(‘[http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/decalog.html#TEN](http://www.christusrex.org/www1/CDHN/decalog.html#TEN)’)): > [@](#): > > SECTION TWO - THE TEN COMMANDMENTS > > “Teacher, what must I do . . .?” > > 2052 “Teacher, what good deed must I do, to have eternal life?” To the young man who asked > this question, Jesus answers first by invoking the necessity to recognize God as the “One there > is who is good,” as the supreme Good and the source of all good. Then Jesus tells him: “If you > would enter life, keep the commandments.” And he cites for his questioner the precepts that > concern love of neighbor: “You shall not kill, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not > steal, You shall not bear false witness, Honor your father and mother.” Finally Jesus sums up > these commandments positively: “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.”[1] > > 2053 To this first reply Jesus adds a second: “If you would be perfect, go, sell what you > possess and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.”[2] > This reply does not do away with the first: following Jesus Christ involves keeping the > Commandments. The Law has not been abolished,[3] but rather man is invited to rediscover it > in the person of his Master who is its perfect fulfillment. In the three synoptic Gospels, Jesus’ > call to the rich young man to follow him, in the obedience of a disciple and in the observance of > the Commandments, is joined to the call to poverty and chastity.[4] The evangelical counsels > are inseparable from the Commandments. > > 2054 Jesus acknowledged the Ten Commandments, but he also showed the power of the > Spirit at work in their letter. He preached a “righteousness [which] exceeds that of the scribes > and Pharisees”[5] as well as that of the Gentiles.[6] He unfolded all the demands of the > Commandments. “You have heard that it was said to the men of old, ‘You shall not kill.’ . . . > But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment.”[7] > > 2055 When someone asks him, “Which commandment in the Law is the greatest?”[8] Jesus > replies: “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with > all your mind. This is the greatest and first commandment. And a second is like it: You shall > love your neighbor as yourself. On these two commandments hang all the Law and the > prophets.”[9] The Decalogue must be interpreted in light of this twofold yet single > commandment of love, the fullness of the Law: > The commandments: “You shall not commit adultery, You shall not kill, You shall not steal, > You shall not covet,” and any other commandment, are summed up in this sentence: “You shall > love your neighbor as yourself.” Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the > fulfilling of the law.[10] They are they experts on the whole sin thing, some would say. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poverty-a-sin/34896/3 "2000-09-28T18:24:42Z")
WADR, jmullaney, your quote would be more helpful if you would highlight the portion of that quote which is relevant to the OP, or at least summarize it in your own words. I can’t speak for other religions, but in Judaism, one is only responsible for his actions, not for the circumstances he happens to be in. Therefore, **being** poor cannot possibly be a sin. What is relevant is how one reacts to this condition of poverty. If one reacts by passing up a chance to get a decent job, and instead chooses to get involved with some illegal activity, that would clearly be a sin. But if one happens to have a very low standard of living, yet is able to keep himself and his family reasonably happy and healthy, what has he done wrong? I have neither seen nor read the play from which the OP quotes. I’ve read this excerpt, but I’m rather confused by it. What does he mean by > [@](#): > > a police force whose real business is to force the poor man to see his children starve whilst idle people overfeed pet dogs with the money that might feed and clothe them. This is rather puzzling. Is he complaining that a prosperous society would allow some of its children to starve, when it ought to institute some sort of welfare? Then what is the meaning of “_force_ him to see his children starve”? ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poverty-a-sin/34896/4 "2000-09-28T18:47:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Keeve \* > \*\*I have neither seen nor read the play from which the OP quotes. I’ve read this excerpt, but I’m rather confused by it. What does he mean by > > > [@](#): > > > > a police force whose real business is to force the poor man to see his children starve whilst idle people overfeed pet dogs with the money that might feed and clothe them. > > This is rather puzzling. Is he complaining that a prosperous society would allow some of its children to starve, when it ought to institute some sort of welfare? Then what is the meaning of “_force_ him to see his children starve”? \*\* I think Shaw is pointing at the fact that, while Police Forces are designed to protect society from criminals, they often spend their time punishing the poor (incarcerating them, finding them guilty of “vagrancy,” etc.). In essence, Shaw seems to be saying that we punish the poor, instead of helping them. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poverty-a-sin/34896/5 "2000-09-28T19:01:23Z")
And specifically, that we prevent them from taking some of the idle people’s excess resources to relieve their poverty; rather, we expect them to “abhor and repudiate” the idea that their “first duty, to which every other consideration should be sacrificed, is not to be poor.” You can starve, you can see your children starve, but you mustn’t do anything about it that involves breaking the rules that richer people have set up to protect themselves: that, I think, is the message that Shaw finds “intolerable”. A poor person who obeys that message is “immoral”, says Shaw, because he’s ignoring what is actually his “first duty.” ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poverty-a-sin/34896/6 "2000-09-28T19:05:08Z")
So is he trying to justify theft? ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poverty-a-sin/34896/7 "2000-09-28T19:07:45Z")
**Kimstu** , you’ve got it _exactly_ backwards. Shaw is saying that you and I (and he) should make it our first duty, “not to be poor.” Have you seen _Major Barbara_? The point seems to be, as I saw it, that it is society’s responsibility to use industry to allow every man to “not be poor.” ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Malik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/48db29/32.png) [@Joe\_Malik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Malik)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poverty-a-sin/34896/8 "2000-09-28T19:46:09Z")
It seems that Shaw acutally exhorts _both_ duties here: Each individual has the overriding obligation to secure his or her means of existence, and that all individuals (society) have the obligation to permit and support this obligation. As I have not read the play, I base this analysis only on the paragraph offered. However, it accurately describes my own philosophy and values. ---
**Author:** ![Keeve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f07891/32.png) [@Keeve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Keeve)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poverty-a-sin/34896/9 "2000-09-28T20:21:05Z")
I thank sdimbert for trying to answer my confusion, but I have trouble reconciling that with this portion of the quote: > [@](#): > > “Poor, but honest” … and such phrases are as intolerable and as immoral as “drunken but amiable,” … “splendidly criminal,” or the like. By explicitly using “poor but honest” as an example, he has totally confused me. Especially in this light, his statement that > [@](#): > > our first duty, to which every other consideration should be sacrificed, is not to be poor. makes it sound to me (as jmullaney wrote) like he will justify theft in order to escape poverty. ---
**Author:** ![Nen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Nen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nen)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poverty-a-sin/34896/10 "2000-09-28T20:32:44Z")
Considering Mt 5:3 I would say that sin is not only not a sin, but a virtue in the Christian tradition. Ex 22:25 would imply that Judaic tradition would not view poverty as a sin. My interpretation of Shaw’s words are that poverty is not a sin; moreover, that our system of government provide no resolution and cause further damage. Shaw’s assertion that we should avoid poverty does not equate with sin, rather, it gives us pause to consider the environment to which the poor are subjected. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poverty-a-sin/34896/11 "2000-09-28T21:22:15Z")
**sdimbert:** \*Shaw is saying that you and I (and he) should make it our first duty, “not to be poor.” \* That’s what I said. He also says that our society is shutting its eyes to that duty, and discouraging poor people from following it. Society exhorts us, “Be honest and law-abiding, even if you starve in consequence: it’s all right to be poor, as long as you’re poor but honest!” And society’s police forces back up that exhortation with physical force. That’s what Shaw finds immoral and intolerable. So Keeve is right in saying that (in this preface, at least) Shaw is implicitly justifying theft in order to escape poverty—or at least, insisting that submitting to poverty is at least as bad as committing theft to escape it. \*Have you seen Major Barbara? \* No, but I’ve read it. \*The point seems to be, as I saw it, that it is society’s responsibility to use industry to allow every man to “not be poor.” \* I agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![sdimbert](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sdimbert/32/20204_2.png) [@sdimbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sdimbert)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poverty-a-sin/34896/12 "2000-09-28T21:39:53Z")
**Kimstu** , Thanks for clarifying - you’re correct. I misread you. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Shaw is implicitly justifying theft in order to escape poverty—or at least, insisting that submitting to poverty is at least as bad as committing theft to escape it. > \*\* There is a line in the Third Act somewhere, where Underhill says something like, “I would rather be a wealthy thief than a poor workman!” So, **jmullaney** , I don’t think it is that he is _trying_ to justify theft… it’s more like Shaw is urging us to create a society where a determined man is not required to steal to avoid being poor. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2000, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-poverty-a-sin/34896/13 "2000-09-28T22:08:47Z")
To love God is to have good health, good looks, good sense, experience, a kindly nature and a fair balance of cash in hand. –Samuel Butler