# Is present U.S. immigration pressure any different from earlier waves? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 24, 2008, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-present-u-s-immigration-pressure-any-different-from-earlier-waves/469381 "2008-10-24T16:45:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2008, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-present-u-s-immigration-pressure-any-different-from-earlier-waves/469381/61 "2008-10-29T22:35:32Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > And since when was 47% an “Absolute majority”? I stand corrected. However, it’s beating English 47 to 41 as the language that is spoken at home, so **Bridget** ’s prediction that English will be “number one” in LA in 50 years is highly doubtful unless present trends undergo a sharp reversal. Also, that was in 2000. The proportion of Hispanics has been going up for years, but I couldn’t find a more recent cite. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-present-u-s-immigration-pressure-any-different-from-earlier-waves/469381/62 "2008-10-30T00:10:24Z")
> [@Hyperelastic](#): > > I stand corrected. However, it’s beating English 47 to 41 as the language that is spoken at home, so **Bridget** ’s prediction that English will be “number one” in LA in 50 years is highly doubtful unless present trends undergo a sharp reversal. Most people in the world speak a different language at home than their national language. It’s absolutely normal, sustainable and billions of people do it. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-present-u-s-immigration-pressure-any-different-from-earlier-waves/469381/63 "2008-10-30T17:16:06Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Most people in the world speak a different language at home than their national language. It’s absolutely normal, sustainable and billions of people do it. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Hyperelastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Hyperelastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hyperelastic)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2008, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-present-u-s-immigration-pressure-any-different-from-earlier-waves/469381/64 "2008-10-30T22:06:48Z")
> [@even\_sven](#): > > Most people in the world speak a different language at home than their national language. It’s absolutely normal, sustainable and billions of people do it. Tell that to the Basques. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-present-u-s-immigration-pressure-any-different-from-earlier-waves/469381/65 "2008-10-31T01:52:24Z")
[Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bilingual) says multi-lingual people outnumber monolingual people. The percent I saw most often is 60-75% of the world speaks multiple languages. When you consider that that almost everyone in India\* and China speaks a regional language in the home, these numbers make sense makes sense. Regional languages are also common throughout parts of Asia, most of Africa, and parts of Latin America. Of course some percentage of this is going to be dabblers who learned another language in school, but the vast majority of bilingual people are most likely people who speak a regional language and a national language. The idea that I spoke English in my home was so inconceivable to my Cameroonian friends that they’d actually get angry when the subject came up because they thought I was making shit up. Western Europeans and their descendants are the freaks on this one. - Note that India has like a dozen “official languages” and so please substitute “language that is widely spoken across the country” for “official language”. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2008, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-present-u-s-immigration-pressure-any-different-from-earlier-waves/469381/66 "2008-10-31T02:53:44Z")
> [@Key\_Lime\_Guy](#): > > A lot of people in this thread have made the same point, but it’s a very weak argument in my opinion. > > I’ll play Devil’s advocate: if you bought a nice house in the suburbs a generation ago, and now find you can’t speak with your neighbors, and can’t expect guests to find a parking place in front of your house, and can’t rely on being treated at the emergency room, it’s not much comfort (nor is it very rational) to expect that everything will somehow sort itself out in 50 years in spite of poor planning today. An anecdote does not prove that today is different than the past. I’m sure plenty of people said the same thing in SF’s Chinatown district. It’s _possible_ that the current wave of immigrants is somehow worse than previous waves but I have as yet seen no evidence of it. > [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > We did? They didn’t teach me that in my school. We were told history was a useful guide for predicting the future. Those who forget the past are condemned to bitch about the present. 😉 > [@Hyperelastic](#): > > I missed this one earlier. [Spanish speakers are currently in the absolute majority among persons younger than 18 in LA County](http://www.laalmanac.com/population/po47b.htm). So how do you figure English will be number one on 50 years? I’m sure there have been times when the absolute majority of people in some counties spoke [Pennsylvania German](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_German_language). This is nothing new. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-present-u-s-immigration-pressure-any-different-from-earlier-waves/469381/67 "2008-11-01T19:39:03Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I’m sure there have been times when the absolute majority of people in some counties spoke [Pennsylvania German](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pennsylvania_German_language). This is nothing new. Didja think [Lawrence Welk](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence_Welk) was a foreigner because of his accent? He was born in 1903 in Strasburg, North Dakota, where everybody spoke German. He did not learn English until he was 21. ---
**Author:** ![guizot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guizot/32/3636_2.png) [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-present-u-s-immigration-pressure-any-different-from-earlier-waves/469381/68 "2008-11-01T20:24:02Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > The argument is always that the previous waves “assimilated” while the current ones are not. I mostly disagree with that argument but I will throw this out: each of those waves changed American culture in ways that are accepted now as part of their assimilation… In 2007 the president’s [Council of Economic Advisers issued a report](http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache:CLHjxDKmSE0J:www.whitehouse.gov/cea/cea_immigration_062007.pdf+executive+office+of+the+president%22%2B%22immigration%22&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&gl=us) that agrees with you. Many people make evaluations of assimilation based on superficial observations or gut reactions, or their wife’s kindergarten class. If you taught those kids when they got into high school you’d see something very different. The report is heavily sourced. Here’s the summary: [QUOTE=EXECUTIVE OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS] Key Findings: 1. On average, US natives benefit from immigration. Immigrants tend to complement (not substitute for) natives, raising natives’ productivity and income. 2. Careful studies of the long-run fiscal effects of immigration conclude that it is likely to have a modest, positive influence. 3. Skilled immigrants are likely to be especially beneficial to natives. In addition to contributions to innovation, they have a significant positive fiscal impact… General Points • Immigrants are a critical part of the U.S. workforce and contribute to productivity growth and technological advancement. They make up 15% of all workers and even larger shares of certain occupations such as construction, food services and health care. Approximately 40% of Ph.D. scientists working in the United States were born abroad. (Source: Bureau of Labor Statistics; American Community Survey) • Many immigrants are entrepreneurs. The Kauffman Foundation’s index of entrepreneurial activity is nearly 40% higher for immigrants than for natives. (Source: Kauffman Foundation) \*\*• Immigrants and their children assimilate into U.S. culture. For example, although 72% of first-generation Latino immigrants use Spanish as their predominant language, only 7% of the second generation are Spanish-dominant. (Source: Pew Hispanic enter/Kaiser Family Foundation) \*\* • Immigrants have lower crime rates than natives. Among men aged 18 to 40, immigrants are much less likely to be incarcerated than natives. (Source: Butcher and Piehl) • Immigrants slightly improve the solvency of pay-as-you-go entitlement programs such as Social Security and Medicare. The 2007 OASDI Trustees Report indicates that an additional 100,000 net immigrants per year would increase the long-range actuarial balance by about 0.07% of taxable payroll. (Source: Social Security Administration) • The long-run impact of immigration on public budgets is likely to be positive. Projections of future taxes and government spending are subject to uncertainty, but a careful study published by the National Research Council estimated that immigrants and their descendants would contribute about $80,000 more in taxes (in 1996 dollars) than they would receive in public services. (Source: Smith and Edmonston) [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2008, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-present-u-s-immigration-pressure-any-different-from-earlier-waves/469381/69 "2008-11-01T20:56:47Z")
As a matter of personal opinion, I’ve always felt that immigration is a net gain for the United States. An average immigrant is somebody who’s willing to take a risk, show some individual initiative, and change his life in pursuit of better opportunities. Those qualities are desirable traits in general. So every time an immigrant leaves his or her country and relocates to America, the other country loses and we come out ahead. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2008, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-present-u-s-immigration-pressure-any-different-from-earlier-waves/469381/70 "2008-11-02T00:30:07Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > I wonder about the future, as the USA ceases to be a manufacturing country. I don’t see the USA economy as capable of providing jobs, excepet for those at the low end (landscaping, dishwashers, simple construction), and at the high end (professional jobs). So, can mass immigration of unskilled populations be tolerated? The other issue is the “underground economy”-can this society handle large numbers of people who do not pay income taxes or SS taxes? I think we have made a bad bargain-by allowing illegal immigration, we are setting ourselves up for a big problem, 10-20 years down the road. In addition there’s the environmental impact to be considered. The Colorado Basin is already being drawn dry; one need only look at projections regarding Lake Mead, which predict that the water supply intake for Las Vegas will be above the surface by 2010. Water will become a critical issue throughout the western United States in the years to come, and it’s not unreasonable to be concerned about continuing population growth, and the immigration which is the biggest factor of that growth. What really needs to be done is that NAFTA needs to be fixed, and Mexican wages brought up closer to American and Canadian levels. That would be a true Free Trade Agreement. And, IMO, it’s a huge opportunity that was missed. Instead of helping Mexico out, the result has only been continued low-wage exploitation, which continues to drive immigration northwards. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2008, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-present-u-s-immigration-pressure-any-different-from-earlier-waves/469381/71 "2008-11-02T00:34:35Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > As a matter of personal opinion, I’ve always felt that immigration is a net gain for the United States. An average immigrant is somebody who’s willing to take a risk, show some individual initiative, and change his life in pursuit of better opportunities. Those qualities are desirable traits in general. So every time an immigrant leaves his or her country and relocates to America, the other country loses and we come out ahead. I agree with you in most cases, but the loss of talent is definitely a problem for immigrant’s country of origin. And when that country shares a border you end up having brutal contrasts along a fence that is lined with resentment and anger. The difference in experience between entering the US at Bellingham WA and San Ysidro, CA is almost beyond description. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-present-u-s-immigration-pressure-any-different-from-earlier-waves/469381.md?page=3)