# Is President Bush completley retarded when it comes to how diplomacy is conducted? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 30, 2006, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264 "2006-11-30T00:10:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![glee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b5a626/32.png) [@glee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/glee)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264/21 "2006-11-30T13:43:45Z")
I’m a bit puzzled by all this criticism. Yes, Bush is practically a pariah worldwide. But there are no WMDs in Iraq now and that’s down to him. :eek: 😕 ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264/22 "2006-11-30T14:30:24Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] I think Salon is making a leap by assuming the Bush administration purposely leaked that memo. What evidence do we have that it was? [/QUOTE] The fact that it would be an almost unprecedented breach of the wall of silence surrounding this administration. What other unauthorized leaks can we recall that took place _before_ an official’s firing? John Dean, who knows from paranoid, secretive presidents, calls Bush the clear [winner](http://www.geocities.com/justicewell/dean.htm) even over [Nixon](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/04/04/wnix04.xml&sSheet=/portal/2004/04/04/ixportaltop.html). There are whole [websites](http://www.bushsecrecy.org/) devoted to the topic. Hell, one of his _very first acts_ as president had nothing to do with the economy, foreign policy, the environment, education, the interior, energy, commerce, defense, agriculture, labor, transportation, etc., it was to [seal off presidential records from public scrutiny](http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A20731-2001Oct31), and whether this initiative was to protect his father’s reputation or his own or both is anybody’s guess. The recent elections did nothing to prevent the rot in the executive branch, so there’s no reason to believe that any recent “leaks” (which should for this administration be referred to as “talking points the White House wishes to inject into the public forum without attribution”) are any less intentional and self-serving than, say, making use of tools like Robert Novak to expose Valerie Plame. I swear, the ability of this administration to control information is so out of proportion to its capacity to perceive and process facts that one is tempted to apply labels like “insanity” to a government rather than a person. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264/23 "2006-11-30T16:43:23Z")
[QUOTE=The King of Soup] The fact that it would be an almost unprecedented breach of the wall of silence surrounding this administration… [/QUOTE] That’s something else entirely. That’s an obsession with classifying stuff and not talking to the press by the politicians and political appointees in the administration. But there are lots of career bureaucrats in the government, and IIRC, many particularly in the State Dept. who detest Bush. There have been leaks about the NSA wiretap program, the secret CIA interrogations, and others that were clearly not orchestrated by Bush. This leak has been discussed a lot in the last few days, and I’ve seen lots of different speculation about the source. In fact, there are all kinds of possible scenarios to account for the diplomatic posturing that is going on between Bush and Maliki, and I think it would be naive to assume that we know enough about what’s going on to determine what the one explanation must be. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264/24 "2006-11-30T17:01:05Z")
BTW, I should add that I think Bush is a nitwit when it comes to foreign policy, even if I’m not convinced his administration purposely leaked this particular memo. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264/25 "2006-11-30T17:12:54Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] BTW, I should add that I think Bush is a nitwit when it comes to foreign policy, even if I’m not convinced his administration purposely leaked this particular memo. [/QUOTE] Interesting commentary [opining](http://article.nationalreview.com/?q=MTQyNzhjMWZhYzJiNDA1ZWY3YzAwZmQxMzRmMmEyYzY=) that the memo was not only leaked by the Admin, it was written solely for that purpose. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264/26 "2006-11-30T17:21:41Z")
We’ll never know, of course, but I would be amazed if the leak was accidental. Indeed, I see little reason to even write such a thing unless it was to be leaked. ---
**Author:** ![Faruiza](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@Faruiza](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Faruiza)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264/27 "2006-11-30T17:32:26Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] “Completely retarded” would be a step up from the current situation, which hovers around “frontally lobotomized”. Stranger [/QUOTE] Wouldn’t “frontally lobotomized” imply lack of aggression? Maybe let’s try “parietally damaged” (Unless I got that part of the brain wrong, too.) 😃 ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264/28 "2006-11-30T17:38:00Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] We’ll never know, of course, but I would be amazed if the leak was accidental. Indeed, I see little reason to even write such a thing unless it was to be leaked. [/QUOTE] I’m accepting that as a given. The reason behind it, however, is still murky. But I’m willing to bet it backfires, whatever the intention. ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264/29 "2006-11-30T18:15:39Z")
[QUOTE=silenus] I’m accepting that as a given. The reason behind it, however, is still murky. But I’m willing to bet it backfires, whatever the intention. [/QUOTE] Odds are the story will go something like," _Senator(D)_ had this memo for 6 months before choosing to leak it right before an important meeting. See how bad those Dems are?!?! " As much as I loathe what the 'pubs have been doing, the Dems have availed themselves to them as a near perfect heat sink. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264/30 "2006-11-30T18:17:21Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] BTW, I should add that I think Bush is a nitwit when it comes to foreign policy, even if I’m not convinced his administration purposely leaked this particular memo. [/QUOTE] I’m not either, but considering their control of information in the past, if they didn’t intentionally leak it, it means that their discipline is falling apart. Very possible toward the end of an Administration. I don’t see any issue with the memo being written - it certainly makes sense for someone to analyze the situation of a significan player. I’d suspect that not every low level clerk got access to it, though. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264/31 "2006-11-30T18:17:34Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] We’ll never know, of course… [/QUOTE] If they didn’t leak it, they should quickly push the justice department to investigate. That’s how it’s worked with the Bushies in the past. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264/32 "2006-11-30T19:10:06Z")
[QUOTE=BobLibDem] We’ll never know, of course, but I would be amazed if the leak was accidental. Indeed, I see little reason to even write such a thing unless it was to be leaked. [/QUOTE] Is the “purposeful leak” the concensus out among the various news media? Maybe I got a slanted view watching the news yesterday, but I thought there was a debate about it. Anyway, can you really not see any reason that Bush shouldn’t be kept updated on the effectiveness of the Maliki governemtn? Really? Not even as he prepares to meet with Maliki? Seems to me he should get regular reports specifically on that subject. ---
**Author:** ![Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8c91f0/32.png) [@Throatwarbler\_Mangrove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Throatwarbler_Mangrove)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264/33 "2006-11-30T19:52:44Z")
Dr. Angela Merkel is the _Chancellor_ of Germany, not the Prime Minister. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264/34 "2006-11-30T19:53:55Z")
[QUOTE=Leviosaurus] :rolleyes: I’ll refrain from hijacking the thread to criticize this ridiculous assertion, and simply point out that Bush Sr. and Carter were sitting side by side in the front row and applauding [this moment.](http://origin-www.crimelibrary.com/graphics/photos/terrorists_spies/terrorists/palestinians/PG2_Rabin_Clinton_Arafat.jpg)Hard to believe it ever happened now. Wish we had someone who ‘did nothing’ like this. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=yojimbo] In the big scheme of things it may not be important but Clinton was very involved and vital to the Good Friday Agreement in Northern Ireland. This brought an end to 30 years of murder and mayhem and started the terrorists talking rather than killing. [/QUOTE] Diplomatic missions as a nominally objective negotatior is one thing, but when it came to world affairs on the larger scale, the Clinton Administration measured pretty poorly. From the indifference to supporting democracy in the former Soviet Union to a bipolar attitude toward Africa, not to mention concessions to nations like China and Indonesia despite rampant human rights violations and suppression of democratic elements, the Clinton Administration just didn’t seem to know what to do on the world stage. Getting the Catholics and the Protestants agree to a cease-fire makes for a good photo op but has little effect on the US interest as a whole. Getting Israel and the PLO to sit down and talk, much less make an agreement was without a doubt a major accomplishment (all the moreso for for our stalwart support of Israel whether right or wrong), but again does relatiely little to serve American interests or the world as a whole. I’d be far more impressed if Clinton had managed to make strong ties with the Russian Federation, or had put serious political backing behind preventing genocides in Africa or Eastern Europe, or had effectively modernized and streamlined the US military rather than just gutting out major parts of it for cost reduction. I’d agree that Clinton probably could have talked other nations into supporting an invasion in the post-9/11 environment, but then, he probably wouldn’t have…which would have been the wise move anyway. Clinton could have done a lot better with foreign policy than he did; on the other hand, it’s increasingly hard to see how Bush II could do much worse. Pretty much anyone comes off as favorable in comparison. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Inigo\_Montoya](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inigo_montoya/32/124_2.png) [@Inigo\_Montoya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inigo_Montoya)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2006, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264/35 "2006-11-30T22:31:52Z")
[QUOTE=kawaiitentaclebeast] Dr. Angela Merkel is the _Chancellor_ of Germany, not the Prime Minister. [/QUOTE] I thought she was “Head of Covernment.” ---
**Author:** ![DiggitCamara](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df788c/32.png) [@DiggitCamara](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DiggitCamara)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2006, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264/36 "2006-12-01T00:17:03Z")
Wouldn’t a leak like this be a great machiavellian maneuver? Think about it: Iraq’s prime minister gets pissed at the U.S.'s president and starts to distance himself from the U.S. This cascades into actual enmity between the two and makes the Iraqi prime minister easier to accept to his own people. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2006, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264/37 "2006-12-01T00:24:31Z")
[QUOTE=DiggitCamara] Wouldn’t a leak like this be a great machiavellian … and makes the Iraqi prime minister easier to accept to his own people. [/QUOTE] Even [Machiavelli Can Backfire](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061130/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_061130160134): > [@](#): > > Vice President Tariq al-Hashemi said he wanted to see al-Maliki’s government gone… > Al-Maliki’s No. 2, Deputy Prime Minister Salam Zikam Ali al-Zubaie, also a Sunni, argued that the president’s government failed to curb the spread of sectarian politics… On top of the previous > [@](#): > > A boycott by 30 lawmakers and five Cabinet ministers loyal to anti-American Shiite cleric Muqtada al-Sadr was in protest of al-Maliki’s meeting with President Bush… I think everyone’s just too pissed to buy into that sort of symbolic kabuki crap. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2006, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264/38 "2006-12-01T02:07:57Z")
**Stranger On A Train** you did notice that I started my post with > [@](#): > > In the big scheme of things it may not be important You initially said that he basically did nothing > [@](#): > > mostly avoiding criticism by doing essentially nothing. If you want to be pedantic about what you meant, that’s fair enough but I was merely pointing out that in **some** international things he was very effective. They may not have benefited the US directly\* but the involvement was very effective. \*arguable considering the amount of US investment in Ireland as a whole. [Check out Ireland in this map](http://www.sasi.group.shef.ac.uk/worldmapper/display.php?selected=91). They aren’t Irish companies that make Ireland so big. ---
**Author:** ![Leviosaurus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/439d5e/32.png) [@Leviosaurus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leviosaurus)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2006, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264/39 "2006-12-01T02:28:32Z")
[QUOTE=yojimbo] **Stranger On A Train** you did notice that I started my post with You initially said that he basically did nothing If you want to be pedantic about what you meant, that’s fair enough but I was merely pointing out that in **some** international things he was very effective. They may not have benefited the US directly\* but the involvement was very effective. \*arguable considering the amount of US investment in Ireland as a whole. [Check out Ireland in this map](http://www.sasi.group.shef.ac.uk/worldmapper/display.php?selected=91). They aren’t Irish companies that make Ireland so big. [/QUOTE] You may doubt **Stranger** ’s logic , but it makes perfect sense when you think about it. Granted, Clinton got the PLO and Israel to cease hostilities and shake hands in front of the entire world. Granted, he got the Catholics and Protestants to begin negotiations. Granted that no president in modern history had managed to do either of these things (let alone both at once) despite intense efforts. It doesn’t automatically follow Clinton was good at diplomacy! Or… wait a minute… now that I think about it, I guess it does! :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2006, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264/40 "2006-12-01T02:51:17Z")
[QUOTE=Stranger On A Train] I’d be far more impressed if Clinton had managed to make strong ties with the Russian Federation, or had put serious political backing behind preventing genocides in Africa or Eastern Europe, or had effectively modernized and streamlined the US military rather than just gutting out major parts of it for cost reduction. I’d agree that Clinton probably could have talked other nations into supporting an invasion in the post-9/11 environment, but then, he probably wouldn’t have…which would have been the wise move anyway. Clinton could have done a lot better with foreign policy than he did; on the other hand, it’s increasingly hard to see how Bush II could do much worse. Pretty much anyone comes off as favorable in comparison. Stranger [/QUOTE] Clinton’s achievements were more a matter of NOT stepping in cowpies, which there were plenty of to step in during his Administration, and of being much more focussed on the threat of terrorism than the Bush Administration. Most notably, the Clinton Administration managed not to get us involved in any land wars in the Middle East for no reason at all. In that respect alone, the Clinton Administration has done a job that is an order of magnitude better than the Bush Administration. Methinks you are grading on a curve, one that has a downward slope for the Clinton Administration that is not matched by an objective data about the Clinton Administration performance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-completley-retarded-when-it-comes-to-how-diplomacy-is-conducted/382264.md?page=3)