# Is president Bush killing the reputation of the USA ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 12, 2002, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453 "2002-08-12T00:16:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453/21 "2002-08-12T11:17:49Z")
I, a Canadian, am still reasonably fond of Americans. That fondness is not affected in the least by whatever shlub is in the White House at any given moment. Oddly, sentiments talking about how the Americans know nothing about other countries seem to come from people who think President = U.S., which is ridiculously untrue. ---
**Author:** ![Sephic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecb155/32.png) [@Sephic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sephic)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453/22 "2002-08-12T11:18:39Z")
In fact, Andy, he’s already pointed out that the few Americans he knows personally are really great people. But we’re talking about the IMAGE presented here by a country, by its actions on the world stage and the events occuring within its borders. Reputation. The assimilation of all information into a coherant whole. Actually I’m not saying any other country does a better job of presenting itself, but at least they aren’t going to war with countrys in other continents because they might possibly present a thread that they’ve given no solid evidence for. ---
**Author:** ![London\_Calling](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@London\_Calling](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/London_Calling)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453/23 "2002-08-12T11:26:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by hansel \* > Now Kohl, that fat fuck, has made me think much, much less of the Germans as a whole… Hey ! So the guy liked a little sauerkraut with his schinkenwurst. Not sure that’s a reason (good or bad)…maybe if you went back a few more years… ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453/24 "2002-08-12T11:28:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sephic \* > In fact, Andy, he’s already pointed out that the few Americans he knows personally are really great people. Well, that is my point exactly. Why cling on to stereotypes when all the real information you have suggests otherwise? Of course the media influences people, but we really are in trouble if we’ve reached the stage where we can’t distinguish between media opinion and _facts_, and, more worryingly, allow the fictitious to colour our attitudes more greatly than the truth! ---
**Author:** ![reprise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@reprise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/reprise)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 12:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453/25 "2002-08-12T12:02:50Z")
I suspect one difference between what many of us think we “know” about the US based on the way it is presented in our media and what we think we “know” about other nations is that we are simply exposed to a whole lot more US culture through television, newspapers, music, cinema etc than we are to the culture of other nations. While we may intellectually reject the role the media plays in shaping our perceptions of foreign cultures, I suspect that few of us know enough about many nations currently in the global spotlight (Israel, Palestine, Iraq, Afghanistan) to not be substantially influenced by the way they are presented to us in **our own** media. Quite frankly, we hear an awful lot more here about what Bush is saying and the US is doing than we do about what’s happening in other nations so it’s hardly surprising that we acquire opinions about issues which involve the US even when those issues do not directly affect our own nations. The US - probably above all other nations, due to the sheer pervasiveness of its media - plays to a global audience whether it cares to or not. Inevitably, the presentation of US government policies and actions in 60 second soundbites exposes it to more criticism than nations whose actions are less public. In that respect, the media has become a double-edged sword for the US government and one which it probably isn’t quite sure how to wield at the moment. I don’t think any other nation has really come to grips with the age of instant global scrutiny of its actions either - most are just less visible than the US and so their actions attract less attention and are less likely to be “judged” on the world stage. ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453/26 "2002-08-12T12:11:19Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Zweistein \* > \*\*By ignoring most of the international treaties (Kyoto, VN), having a biased vote at the The Hague war criminal tribunal, protectionismn, harsh comments on international affairs (Palestinian question), even having the Britons saying wait a miniute on the Iraqi problem: > Is president Bush killing the reputation of the USA ? > (or is he saying: f_ck off rest of the world?) \*\* Kyoto and the big land mine ban didn’t go anywhere under the Clinton administration. Did Clinton help kill the reputation of the United States in the international community or is this all Bush’s fault? For your information Bush isn’t ignoring the Kyoto treaty. Our Senate never ratified it and therefore we are not bound by it. Marc ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453/27 "2002-08-12T12:29:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sephic \* > If you’d care to look, Mordib wasn’t attacking Americans as people, but the IMAGE that America projects. Ie, obese, self-righteous, uneducated fast-food addicts with no idea what’s going on in the world stage(see Jerry Springer for evidence). \*\* I understand that. My point is that nearly every country has negative stereotypes associated with it. The difference seems to be that people think the American stereotypes actually represent all Americans. Jerry Springer is hardly a representitive view of the America I know in real life. Another thing. I’m sick of Europeans saying that Americans are not as aware of other countries. European countries are as small as our states. Traveling through 5 countries in Europe is like me driving from New York to Maine. Other than Canada and Mexico, its a friggin 10 hour flight for us to get to the next country. Even so, a lot of Americans travel extensively outside the USA. ---
**Author:** ![Rhapsody](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9de0a6/32.png) [@Rhapsody](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhapsody)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453/28 "2002-08-12T12:42:24Z")
I recently read an article that has really made me rethink things about our “president”. > [@](#): > > A dinner date that was scheduled to happen on march 31st 1981 - the day following the strange assassination attempt on the life of Ronald Reagan. Reagan was the president. And George Bush Sr, the very ambitious former CIA director from Texas was the Vice President. > > What makes this dinner date so special that night was it’s two guests. Hold on to your seats because the following news item should send a chill up your spine. The dinner party was to be held at the home of Neil Bush, the vice president’s son. The guest at the dinner party (which was quickly cancelled after news of the failed attempt on the life of the President), was Scott Hinckley the brother of John Hinckley who just that afternoon fired several shots into Reagans chest, coming one half inch from putting his bullet into the heart of the President - a half inch from putting his friend’s father, George Bush, into the White House. > > Now lets pause a moment and reflect on that. So far what we have is the son of the Vice President linked to the brother of the guy who just tried to kill the president. Take a moment to absorb that. > > Go look it up on Google. Type in (neil bush scott hinckley dinner) See for yourself. > [@](#): > > The Bush Team decided to go with the story that it was just a bad “coincidence.” In the days that followed, Washington saw the most intensive whitewash of any news item ever whitewashed. What should have been the biggest most investigated story of the 80’s was wiped clean from history. They spun it clear off the front, back or middle pages of all the giant newspapers. The only mention of it EVER to appear on national television was a brief comment by NBC’s John Chancellor who was absolutely floored by the revelation and mentioned it during his newscast against the wishes of NBC management. NBC quickly jumped in and censored it. And the revelation was NEVER MENTIONED ON ANY TELEVISION SHOW EVER AGAIN . Having no chance to make it into the History Books, the story resurfaced with the advent of the Internet, but something is happening there as well. It’s being expunged from the Internet as you read this. In 1999 one could find nearly a thousand independent articles pertaining to this most revealing story, then all of the sudden, one by one the pages and sites relating to the story started to disappear. Today there just a few sites who are keeping the story alive. There used to be thousands of references to it , now there are but paltry few. > > But wait, It get’s better. It was revealed in the days following the shooting that since 1970 both George Bush Sr. and John Hinckley Sr (the father of the assassin) were friends and fellow oil industrialists in Texas and Colorado. > > How’s that for another coincidence! > > Pretty coincidental isn’t it? > > Here’s another coincidence, in 1978 Neil Bush lived in Lubbock, Texas while managing his brother George Jr’s (our President’s) campaign for congress. Guess who else lived in Lubbock that year? > > John Hinckley Jr. > > Is there a chill running down your spine yet? If there isn’t, there should be. Normally this many coincidences would sound alarm bells in a normally functioning democracy and there would about a thousand articles in the major media outlets, or there would be at least one fearless soul in congress who would stand up and demand a congressional investigation. Well there actually was. There was only one congressman who defied this force - congressman Larry MacDonald - But guess what? His plane crashed. Many suspect that the infamous Korean Air 007 flight that was shot down by the soviets as it unexplainably veered into soviet airspace was an insider deal by heavyweights in the clandestine underworld in exchange for certain unfettered Soviet meddling in places like Central Asia and elsewhere in the following years. > [@](#): > > A quick rundown on the Carlyle group. > > The Carlyle Group is basically a group of political insiders who buy failing military contractors at bargain basement prices. The reason why they buy the failing discounted companies is because the Defence Department appropriations guidelines require that companies be in existence for a certain time before being allowed to enter government contracts, for the obvious reasons. Then with their insider status and all the requirements and appearances in place, they then do insider deals with their buddies on the inside for this or that weapons system, and cash in big time. That the Carlyle Group in a nutshell. Who’s on the board of Carlyle Group? George Bush Sr, James Baker, John Major, It’s chairman is Frank Carlucci -former Defence Secretary and Princeton University wrestling teammate and pal of current Defence Secretary, Donald Rumsfeld. > [@](#): > > The Bushes Have NEVER waged war with any population except the very poorest of the Earth’s poor - The impoverished, shirtless and barefooted populations of Vietnam, Cambodia, Cuba, Guatamala, Nicaragua, El Salvador, and on and on. And now we are at war with Afganistan - The country with the lowest per capita expenditure on military in the world, right behind Cambodia. That’s courage! (The only historical exception to this rule of decimating only impoverished populations is when Prescott Bush, George Sr’s father eagerly financed the Hitler war machine as it rampaged throughout Europe.) > > Bushes Jr.’s. grandfather and great grandfather were both merchants of death. The great Grandfather was involved with the Remington Arms Manufacturing Company when, during World War One - they sold 3/4 of all light armaments used in that war - to both sides! > > This is what they do - This is ALL they do. > > (Vox challenges any Bush spokesman or defender to prove otherwise) > > As Director of Union Bank, Prescott Bush eagerly financed the Nazis. It took an act of Congress to order him to cease and desist in aiding Hitler. But is was too late. The family fortune had already been made. And if you know how old families with old money work you will know that they are all very intimate with where their family fortune came from. > [@](#): > > That Hinkeley-Bush connection story was obliterated in the days following the assassination attempt, just like nearly any reference to the much vaunted and much hyped airline stock connection story was expunged from any reference or further discussion when all leads in that story pionted to the number two man at CIA - Krongard. Don’t take my word for it. If you care about your life and that of your children, get out your google search engine and look it up for yourself. Your life depends on it. Type in (Krongard CIA airline) - that should get you what little scraps remain of that story, but it’s a biggy. > > What should have been the biggest story of the eighties (the Bush / Hinkeley dinner date) was wiped clean from history, and now this connection between the stock transactions and a direct link to the CIA has also been systematically killed from ever being mentioned by corporate media. [http://www.bvalphaserver.com/modules.php?name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=9374](http://www.bvalphaserver.com/modules.php?name=XForum&file=viewthread&tid=9374) ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453/29 "2002-08-12T12:47:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MGibson \* > Kyoto and the big land mine ban didn’t go anywhere under the Clinton administration. Did Clinton help kill the reputation of the United States in the international community or is this all Bush’s fault? For your information Bush isn’t ignoring the Kyoto treaty. Our Senate never ratified it and therefore we are not bound by it. The thing is that outside of the US where the Rep/Dem doesn’t really matter, Clinton was from my experience way more respected that Bush Jnr. Even forgetting about actual politics for a second Bush Jnr. is from what I can see almost a laughing stock in Europe. He doesn’t carry the post very well. His tone is condescending, the pause for effect every sentence makes it seem like he’s stupid (or is that the reason 😉 ). He just doesn’t have it. Even Pres’s who politically would have had a hard time in Europe didn’t get it as hard as Bush. Regan who I remember got a lot of abuse over here due to his apparent forgetfulness and the whole cowboy thing wasn’t looked at with the same scorn as Bush Jnr. is. It’s not just about politics, which he’d have a hard time selling in most of Europe anyway due to the stronger right-wing here, it’s the man himself. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453/30 "2002-08-12T12:49:43Z")
Reagan. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453/31 "2002-08-12T13:03:27Z")
I’m afraid to say that I don’t know a _single_ non-Merkin who doesn’t think Bush is a know-nothing, scary little bozo. Even my most conservative, right-wing, Thatcher-loving friend thinks the same way. I agree with **yojimbo** that it’s down to personality. Facile, but true. I believe most thinking people do not believe this rubs off too badly on the American people - the Gore/Bush result was clearly so damn close. Make of this information what you wish. You can tell us it’s none of our business, but we’re still going to comment, because he’s the leader of the most influential power on earth, and his internal and external policies have an effect on us. When America sneezes, the World catches a cold. _Why_ the defensiveness though? It’s not like you guys have anything to prove - you’ve won. You’re the only superpower left; the richest, most powerful nation ever, with the largest military machine in the history of humanity. Turning it round, if you were to tell me that Tony Blair is an egotistical sleazeball with his nose planted firmly in GWB’s heiny, I couldn’t help but agree with you. ---
**Author:** ![\_LX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/_/67e7ee/32.png) [@\_LX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/_LX)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453/32 "2002-08-12T13:03:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > \*\*I’m sick of Europeans saying that Americans are not as aware of other countries. European countries are as small as our states. Traveling through 5 countries in Europe is like me driving from New York to Maine. Other than Canada and Mexico, its a friggin 10 hour flight for us to get to the next country. Even so, a lot of Americans travel extensively outside the USA. \*\* And the point of that is? Does the size of one’s country justify ignorance about other countries? I don’t travel much. In fact I’ve only been to three different countries myself. But still I claim to know more about other countries in Europe, Asia, Latin America and also North America than I think the average American does. Most European countries also teach both European and American history, whereas the US focus (only?) on American history. I know most stuff is stereotypical. But I also don’t get the impression that the US wants to prove it wrong by the was they present themselves in the media. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453/33 "2002-08-12T13:15:02Z")
[Moderator Hat ON] **Sephic** , do not use the quote feature to misrepresent a poster as saying something s/he did not. Please read [the FAQ on posting quidelines](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?&threadid=106617) and take it to heart. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453/34 "2002-08-12T13:16:25Z")
**Moderator’s Note:** **Sephic** , do NOT attribute to other posters things they have not actually said, even as a rhetorical device. Please see the announcement [Don’t falsely attribute quotes to other SDMB members](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/announcement.php?forumid=7), located at the top of each forum, including this one. ---
**Author:** ![Sephic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecb155/32.png) [@Sephic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sephic)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453/35 "2002-08-12T13:29:10Z")
My apologies, on none of the other message boards I’ve ever posted at has altering quotes been a problem - I find it irritating when people quote long segments of another person’s post, it lengthens threads unnecessarily. I think it was pretty obvious I was being sarcastic anyway, but point noted. > [@](#): > > My point is that nearly every country has negative stereotypes associated with it. The difference seems to be that people think the American stereotypes actually represent all Americans. I’ve already said all countries have negative stereotypes, AND that they don’t represent all people in a country, as stereotyping inherantly lends itself to making blind generalities. MY point is that other countries aren’t invading countries posing no obvious direct threat, just because they can. Is the way the current Bush administration is behaving representing America badly to the rest of the world? Looking at this thread, I’d have to say yes. ---
**Author:** ![Sephic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecb155/32.png) [@Sephic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sephic)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453/36 "2002-08-12T13:35:29Z")
On a side note: Was this Poster B mentioned in the announcement an American? Or is that just another stereotypical oddity that Americans seem to sue over anything? Note: a regular customer in the shop where I work is planning to sue the company for selling him a cheap camera which wrecked a film. I know its not just Americans who sue over silly things. But I’m curious. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453/37 "2002-08-12T14:18:57Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by LX_ > And the point of that is? Does the size of one’s country justify ignorance about other countries? I don’t travel much. In fact I’ve only been to three different countries myself. But still I claim to know more about other countries in Europe, Asia, Latin America and also North America than I think the average American does. Good for you. What are you basing that opinion on? I have arbitrarily decided that I know more about everything than the average European. Does that make it true? No, unless the things have changed, we still learn about the history of other countries in school. We did not get to be the richest most powerful country in the world by being a nation of ignorent rednecks. Hey! I want to see what Sephic wrote! ---
**Author:** ![Sephic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecb155/32.png) [@Sephic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sephic)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453/38 "2002-08-12T14:42:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > \*\*Hey! I want to see what Sephic wrote! \*\* As far as I can see, none of my posts have been edited. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453/39 "2002-08-12T14:43:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by msmith537 \* > **No one who speaks German could be an evil man.🙂** Anytime a group of people are discussing a national leader, and someone works in a quote from the Simpsons, you know you live in the best country in the world. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![december](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/838e76/32.png) [@december](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/december)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2002, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453/40 "2002-08-12T14:54:56Z")
Under Bush’s leadership, the US overthrew the awful Taleban/al Qaeda regime in Afghanistan. Rather than “shooting from the hip” or behaving like a “cowboy,” there was careful, methodical planning and effective execution. As a result, the war was won quicker than most people expected. As a result, thousands of Afghans were saved from starvation. (Since the Talibvan was interfering with relief shipments of food.) Also, it ended a regime that was killing thousands of Afgan citizens. Europeans are safer, because al Qaeda was weakened. What credit do Bush and the US get for this effort? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-bush-killing-the-reputation-of-the-usa/123453.md?page=3)