# Is President Obama's proposed executive action on illegal immigrants an abuse of power? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 20, 2014, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155 "2014-11-20T13:29:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155/41 "2014-11-20T21:06:46Z")
> [@DigitalC](#): > > Oh my god appointments, you poor thing. You are missing the point, you are still the lucky one here. So you have no problem penalizing those who try to obey the law to accomodate those who don’t? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155/42 "2014-11-20T21:08:18Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Thus is the logic of the bleeding heart, delusional liberal. It’s no better than the reverend’s wife screaming “but PLEASE won’t someone think of the children!” Their appeal to humanity trumps common sense and rational immigration policy. And then they want to call others racist and xenophobic for calling their stance irrational. > > When it comes to immigration policy, the road to hell is paved with the good intentions of bleeding heart liberals. They want to pat themselves on the back and feel good about saving humanity. Common sense be damned. In rational, commonsensical terms, there is really only one arguably good reason to put any limits at all on immigration: To protect American workers from wage-competition from cheap immigrant labor. But, somehow, that never seems to be the main consideration driving the legislation. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155/43 "2014-11-20T21:18:24Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > Every citizen of North Korea, Iraq, Mexico, Columbia, Somalia, and a host of other countries should be able to immigrate to the United States and become a legal citizen simply because they live in shitty countries. If they bypass the legal system of immigration in place, which allows more legal immigrants than every other nation in the world _combined_, then oh well, they get a pass for breaking the law because they live in shitty countries. > > Thus is the logic of the bleeding heart, delusional liberal. It’s no better than the reverend’s wife screaming “but PLEASE won’t someone think of the children!” Their appeal to humanity trumps common sense and rational immigration policy. And then they want to call others racist and xenophobic for calling their stance irrational. > > When it comes to immigration policy, the road to hell is paved with the good intentions of bleeding heart liberals. They want to pat themselves on the back and feel good about saving humanity. Common sense be damned. This either stems from ignorance or cruelty, and it’s shameful either way. First of all, I think you’re referring to “Colombia”, not Columbia, the District of which contains our capital city. There was a slogan that appeared as graffiti in immigrant neighborhoods of the UK in the 1970s: “We came here because you went there.” In other words, the policies and actions of the UK so damaged the Indian Subcontinent, Jamaica, West Africa, and so on, it pushed people into the migrant stream. The same is true for the United States. The US has spent centuries killing hope in Latin America, among other places. What the “Asian Tigers” (and Israel, and for a while Yugoslavia, and Costa Rica) were allowed to get away with (land reform, the developmental state in general) provoked cries of “OMG TEH KOMMUNISM!!!eleven!! REDS!!!” when Latin American governments and social movements tried it. The US responded with coups, support for right-wing dictators, contras, and all the rest. More subtle things happened with less violence, e.g. NAFTA and CAFTA throwing millions of people out of work and into the migrant stream. I’m just old enough to remember graffiti in my hometown, reading “US Out of El Salvador!” Needless to say, I had to learn on my own about the death squads, and what the US has done and continues to do to El Salvador and its neighbors. I was infuriated by all of this, and it made a huge impact on the course of my life. You never hear about illegal immigrants from Costa Rica or Belize, do you? There aren’t many from Nicaragua at the moment, since the Sandinistas are doing things like community policing, to cut down on violent crime. El Salvador’s new FMLN government is trying to follow along, in the face of threats and subversion from the US-backed right wing. Frankly, we owe it to them. But in any case, you shouldn’t worry. Even really conservative economists agree that immigrants go when and where there are jobs, and stop going when they have no such option. It’s supply and demand, the market, you know? If the US had no laws regarding immigration whatsoever, people would migrate to fill the demand, which would trigger a rise in costs as a given area becomes more desirable, which would then lead to a decrease or halt in migration. It’s the reason why affordable housing is a difficult issue in many cities, as more people want to live there now. It’s the market, you know? Also, immigration is self-limiting. Remittances from the First World go a long way in poorer countries. It’s why emigration from Mexico has decreased, as the country has a sizable middle class now. The same is true for the Philippines, another country ravaged by Spanish/Japanese/American imperialism and neo-imperialism. Oh, and regarding “more immigrants than the rest of the world combined”… That’s not true per capita. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155/44 "2014-11-20T21:39:12Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s pretty much the same thing Bush I and Reagan did. What was the thing that Reagan did? (Not being snarky - I’d like to know.) ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155/45 "2014-11-20T21:41:27Z")
How nice. Historical interventionism on the part of the United States as an affirmation of the validity of illegal immigration. “Two wrongs make a right” is now the mantra of the Left. Their infinite humanist wisdom never fails. Also, charming “street art” remembrances aside, it beggars the mind that the foreign peoples whose lives we supposedly destroyed would turn around and happily want to join the oppressor nation. _Darth Vader killed my family so I enlisted in the Imperial Army!_ ---
**Author:** ![DigitalC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ebca7d/32.png) [@DigitalC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DigitalC)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155/46 "2014-11-20T21:51:51Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > So you have no problem penalizing those who try to obey the law to accomodate those who don’t? > > Regards, > Shodan No problem whatsoever, the lucky few who were allowed to immigrate here legally should consider themselves lucky that they ever had that option in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155/47 "2014-11-20T21:53:28Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > How nice. Historical interventionism on the part of the United States as an affirmation of the validity of illegal immigration. > > “Two wrongs make a right” is now the mantra of the Left. Their infinite humanist wisdom never fails. > > Also, charming “street art” remembrances aside, it beggars the mind that the foreign peoples whose lives we supposedly destroyed would turn around and happily want to join the oppressor nation. _Darth Vader killed my family so I enlisted in the Imperial Army!_ The intervention is ongoing. Let’s remove both of the “wrongs” by adopting a non-interventionist foreign policy (like FDR’s “Good Neighbor Policy” towards Latin America) and legalizing immigration for low-skilled workers, because the economy needs some, and because they deserve it, and because it helps almost everyone. Luke Skywalker wanted to join the Imperial Naval Academy, and he already hated the Empire before they killed his aunt and uncle. Desperate people will do what they have to do. ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155/48 "2014-11-20T22:39:13Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > But I think your comparison is a good one. Suppose a DA disagrees with laws against marijuana - or, for that matter, the Violence Against Women Act, or whatever - and decides that he’s just not going to prosecute anyone for those crimes. You’re cool with that? “_District Attorneys at all levels of government make choices about which cases to prosecute or not_”. Within reason, I am OK with it. There’s no need to throw the book at everyone for every little infraction. Of course, DA’s exist at a much lower level in the hierarchy than the President, so I would expect them to have less latitude than the President. Which is not to say that they shouldn’t be held accountable. If a DA decides to stop prosecuting marijuana cases, that’s within his power (I think; we’ll assume so for the sake of argument), but if this makes everyone else unhappy, there are ways to replace him. > [@](#): > > What “checks and balances” are in play here? What method does congress have to check or balance the president when he infringes on legislative turf? Congress has several options. They can impeach a President. They also control funding, so they can shut down the government until an agreement is reached. There are also options through the courts. The courts have quite a bit of power when it comes to interpreting conflicts between laws and executive orders. Heck, the courts could side with the President, though that would be one interesting precedent. That’s why I say this situation could just as easily be a landmark issue or a forgotten footnote. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155/49 "2014-11-20T22:51:16Z")
[This is what it’s really all about.](http://www.salon.com/2014/11/20/tom_coburns_lunacy_and_the_real_meaning_of_the_immigration_fight/) > [@](#): > > [Senator Tom] Coburn’s statement [about an EO halting deportations sparking “anarchy” and “violence”] raised a few eyebrows, but for a couple of reasons — the GOP’s superior message discipline, the fear of sounding partisan, the reluctance to view politics through a zero-sum lens, etc. — the media has mostly bought Republicans’ framing, that this was about executive overreach. That’s a shame, because it means many Americans who aren’t part of the anti-immigrant right won’t understand its motivations, which don’t have much to do with the separation of powers but have everything to do with the “culture” and “identity” of the United States. A debate about who we are lets every American have her say; a debate about constitutionalism renders the conversation accessible mostly to the elite. > > If we were to strip the euphemism and minutiae from the conversation, here’s what it would look like: Instead of engaging in academic discussions of “norms” or wasting time with tit-for-tat examples of partisan hypocrisy, we’d listen to Coburn. Not because his premonitions of disaster are serious and in themselves worthy of attention, but because they’re so clearly in-tune with the rhetoric about immigration that actually exists within the GOP base. If you talk to Tea Party people about immigration, as Harvard’s Theda Skocpol and Vanessa Williamson did in a definitive study of the movement, you won’t hear about the imperial presidency or prosecutorial discretion. You’ll hear about liberals bringing good-for-nothing immigrants into the country so they can make them citizens, have them vote for Democrats and establish a new America where the government exists to redistribute from those who “make” to those who “take.” > > Put differently, an honest estimation of the anti-reform bloc’s views here would spend a lot more time looking to Pat Buchanan, author of “Suicide of a Superpower: Will America Survive to 2025?” and many other anti-immigration tracts, than James Madison. And it would devote more energy to teasing out the links between Mitt Romney, who blamed his 2012 loss on Obama’s willingness to dole out “gifts,” and Michele Bachmann, who described the president’s executive orders as an attempt to make “illiterate” immigrants the “new voters” for the Democrats in 2016. That’s where you have to look to understand immigration politics; forget about checks and balances and start listening to conservatives when they say they’re fighting to “take our country back.” ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155/50 "2014-11-20T23:00:23Z")
Why does it have to be either/or? I think both are valid concerns, and both are part of the same issue. If the Republicans weren’t opposed to Obama’s policy, then they would vote for such a law. This is not a secret. But that doesn’t mean there are not also concerns over a power grab by Obama. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155/51 "2014-11-20T23:37:12Z")
It is an abuse of power. Prosecutorial discretion was never meant to be used as a way to not enforce laws a President doesn’t want enforced. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 20, 2014, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155/52 "2014-11-20T23:50:48Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > It is an abuse of power. Prosecutorial discretion was never meant to be used as a way to not enforce laws a President doesn’t want enforced. I think that’s an important point. Scenario 1: We have only so many law enforcement officials, and I need to prioritize where we put them to use best. Scenario 2: This law is not fair, and so I will choose not to enforce it. Scenario 2 is fine and dandy until the guy from the other political party picks a law he doesn’t like, but that you do like. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2014, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155/53 "2014-11-21T01:04:05Z")
How hard would it be for a GOP President to say, “We’re not going to go after any taxpayer who has paid at least 10% of his gross income in taxes. Resources would be best used to go after those evaders who pay no taxes at all.” ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2014, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155/54 "2014-11-21T01:44:38Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > How nice. Historical interventionism on the part of the United States as an affirmation of the validity of illegal immigration. > > “Two wrongs make a right” is now the mantra of the Left. Their infinite humanist wisdom never fails. > > Also, charming “street art” remembrances aside, it beggars the mind that the foreign peoples whose lives we supposedly destroyed would turn around and happily want to join the oppressor nation. _Darth Vader killed my family so I enlisted in the Imperial Army!_ Also, there are Armenians in Turkey today. Some are there because they are the descendants of the urban Armenians (and others who were) spared by the Ottomans, but others have migrated in recent years. I’m not sure of their legal status by and large, but the analogy holds (the Republic of Turkey is not the Ottoman Empire, but considering the attitudes and positions held on both sides, the comparison is apt). People go where economic opportunities beckon, even in a case like that. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2014, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155/55 "2014-11-21T02:04:42Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > … the good intentions of bleeding heart liberals. They want to pat themselves on the back and feel good about saving humanity. Common sense be damned. Good intention is common sense. Its the other kind that is stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2014, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155/56 "2014-11-21T02:19:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **Fotheringay-Phipps** : > > Obama may have found a loophole in the law, in that no one thought to outlaw a president simply refusing to enforce (or partially enforcing) a law that he doesn’t like. But the political system for the past few hundred years has been based on the notion that the president doesn’t do that. Once that precedent is breached, there’s no telling how it ends. “John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!” –[President Andrew Jackson, 1832](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcester_v._Georgia#Jackson.27s_response) As for complaints that these immigrants should be following the legal process, they are. For most immigrants to the US, the _only_ legal way in is to come in and hope for amnesty. If we want them to choose a different option, then we have to give them one. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2014, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155/57 "2014-11-21T02:26:21Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > As for complaints that these immigrants should be following the legal process, they are. For most immigrants to the US, the _only_ legal way in is to come in and hope for amnesty. If we want them to choose a different option, then we have to give them one. Well, they’re not. I think it’s that we don’t want them to come in. So the question is, how do we make sure that only the immigrants we want to come to the US come to the US? ---
**Author:** ![Donald\_Rump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9fc29f/32.png) [@Donald\_Rump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donald_Rump)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2014, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155/58 "2014-11-21T02:40:17Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, they’re not. I think it’s that we don’t want them to come in. So the question is, how do we make sure that only the immigrants we want to come to the US come to the US? You seriously think the issue is that we don’t want these immigrants to come? Our very way of life practically depends on the cheap labor they provide. We don’t mind them bring here, we just want to be able to keep them confined to lower caste status. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155/59 "2014-11-21T03:04:06Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > For most immigrants to the US, the _only_ legal way in is to come in and hope for amnesty. If we want them to choose a different option, then we have to give them one. What is this nonsense. The only legal way to immigrate is to break the law by entering illegally? Jesus Christ, just admit these people are breaking the law. They are here illegally. Entering the country illegally is an illegal act. It is not the process of legal immigration. The legal way to immigrate is to be legally granted the opportunity to immigrate. This is kindergarten stuff and so many smart people refuse to learn their ABC’s. ---
**Author:** ![Lemmytheseal2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/82dd89/32.png) [@Lemmytheseal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemmytheseal2)\ **Post date:** [November 21, 2014, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155/60 "2014-11-21T04:30:10Z")
> [@Stringbean](#): > > What is this nonsense. The only legal way to immigrate is to break the law by entering illegally? > > Jesus Christ, just admit these people are breaking the law. They are here illegally. Entering the country illegally is an illegal act. It is not the process of legal immigration. > > The legal way to immigrate is to be legally granted the opportunity to immigrate. This is kindergarten stuff and so many smart people refuse to learn their ABC’s. There aren’t enough visas for lower-skilled workers from most places, despite the economic necessity for them, along with the US turning them into refugees in the first place. There is no line in which they can get. > [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Well, they’re not. I think it’s that we don’t want them to come in. So the question is, how do we make sure that only the immigrants we want to come to the US come to the US? I’m not sure who “we” are here, but the market, among other things, plainly wants them to come. > [@Chronos](#): > > “John Marshall has made his decision; now let him enforce it!” > –[President Andrew Jackson, 1832](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Worcester_v._Georgia#Jackson.27s_response) Quoted very effectively in The Crow, released twenty years ago, in the scene that cost Brandon Lee his life. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-president-obamas-proposed-executive-action-on-illegal-immigrants-an-abuse-of-power/705155.md?page=4)