# Is Pro-Life Inconsistent with Euthanasia? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 19, 2020, 5:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979 "2020-09-19T05:20:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979/41 "2020-09-22T07:13:01Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > If ‘pro-life’ people were really against taking innocent lives, they’d be major supporters of the BLM movement since the entire point of BLM is that police should not be allowed to kill people, especially minorities. But I’ve never seen any of those raging protesters that you see around an abortion clinic screaming at people at BLM protests, they seem to stick to anit-abortion and I’ve in fact never met one who’s willing to, say, wear a BLM hat to their protest to show their solidarity with not taking innocent lives. That’s because, by and large, pro-lifers do not consider the black men killed by cops to be “innocent.” They believe that the vast majority of those were justified shootings; i.e., a black man pulling out a gun on cops or something. Now as for George Floyd or such, yeah, there has been little voice from pro-lifers on that though. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 8:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979/42 "2020-09-22T08:16:37Z")
> [@razordance](#): > > Nitpick: It’s spelled “euthanasia.” As in, anime characters. I don’t get it. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979/43 "2020-09-22T13:41:46Z")
I agree with what @Chronos said about the dual effect. There is no black-and-white, ISO, definition of heroic measures, so I’d do my best to avoid “what if…” scenarios. If the drugs probably kills as its main effect, it is wrong. If the pain killer, say (I’m inventing) gradually reduces the strength of the heart muscles so that instead of 10 years it is 4 or 5 without (or with less) pain, then I’d say it’s ok. In such borderline of borderline cases, I’d call on my friend who is an MD and has a doctorate in Bioethics from a Catholic university to help me. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979/44 "2020-09-22T15:14:32Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > If the drugs probably kills as its main effect, it is wrong. If the pain killer, say (I’m inventing) gradually reduces the strength of the heart muscles so that instead of 10 years it is 4 or 5 without (or with less) pain, then I’d say it’s ok. The more common scenario I’ve heard about is painkillers that tend to depress respiration being in used in large doses in the last days of terminal cancer, where to suppress pain you basically have to drug the person unconscious or close to it. Even if consciousness is not suppressed, breathing may still be which can accelerate death due to respiratory suppression, or by making something like pneumonia more likely. If the alternative is screaming agony I’m willing to make that trade as a kindness to the dying. Which doesn’t rule out your scenario. When I’ve been at end-of-life for loved ones I certainly have made use of doctors and others for to resolve medical and ethical questions. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979/45 "2020-09-22T15:37:09Z")
If it is the last days of a terminal illness, I would not see an ethical issue. Thr longer the expected time of death, the more difficult that the line becomes, but a person living in constant, excruciating pain is not a very defensible proposition to avoid a pain killer. For me, at least, it is the intention. Do you want to kill to alleviate pain? It’s wrong. Do you want to alleviate pain while, unavoidabyl causing death? It’s good. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979/46 "2020-09-22T15:39:41Z")
Thank you for your perspective. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![Dark\_Sponge](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dark_sponge/32/121_2.png) [@Dark\_Sponge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dark_Sponge)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979/47 "2020-09-22T19:27:22Z")
> [@Pantastic](#): > > If ‘pro-life’ people were really against taking innocent lives, they’d be major supporters of the BLM movement since the entire point of BLM is that police should not be allowed to kill people, especially minorities. But I’ve never seen any of those raging protesters that you see around an abortion clinic screaming at people at BLM protests, they seem to stick to anit-abortion and I’ve in fact never met one who’s willing to, say, wear a BLM hat to their protest to show their solidarity with not taking innocent lives… Have you ever been to a pro-life protest? I have. It was completely quiet and peaceful (on the pro-life side). The day consisted of a large group of people (around 75% women, 25% men) sitting quietly outside a courthouse holding signs. The ‘other side’ spent the day shouting at the protestors through a bullhorn, calling them bigots & racists, stealing their signs, etc. I’ve really not seen the hate from the pro-life side that most dopers talk about on here. I’m sure there are some horrible pro-life people who have hurt people; there are people like that everywhere. But from what I’ve seen it’s a tiny minority. ---
**Author:** ![Skunkdog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c2a13f/32.png) [@Skunkdog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skunkdog)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979/48 "2020-09-22T19:47:06Z")
I’m no fan of Bill O’Reilly, but I recall him talking to then-candidate George W. Bush about his statement that Jesus Christ was his favorite philosopher. O’Reilly asked what Jesus would say about the hundreds of executions that Bush had presided over as the governor of Texas. Bush waffled and said that he didn’t think Jesus had voiced an opinion one way or another. O’Reilly then pointed out that since Jesus was a victim of capital punishment he would likely be against it. The antagonism ended there, but I’m curious how W. would have talked his way out of that one. ---
**Author:** ![Skunkdog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c2a13f/32.png) [@Skunkdog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skunkdog)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979/49 "2020-09-22T19:50:57Z")
> [@Dark\_Sponge](#): > > I’ve really not seen the hate from the pro-life side that most dopers talk about on here. I’m sure there are some horrible pro-life people who have hurt people; there are people like that everywhere. But from what I’ve seen it’s a tiny minority. I’ve seen them parked outside of the local Planned Parenthood office screaming at every woman that walks in regardless of whether they are pregnant and seeking an abortion or not. I yell at them from my car to leave the women alone and worry about their own families. I’m sure they take my advice as well as I would theirs. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979/50 "2020-09-22T20:20:55Z")
> [@Dark\_Sponge](#): > > I’m sure there are some horrible pro-life people who have hurt people; there are people like that everywhere. But from what I’ve seen it’s a tiny minority. Hell yes, [there are pro-life people who have hurt people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-abortion_violence#United_States) - there are even anti-abortion/pro-life people who have murdered doctors and others over the issue. The minority might be tiny but they do a lot of damage. ---
**Author:** ![lum\_s\_husband](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lum_s_husband/32/3698_2.png) [@lum\_s\_husband](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lum_s_husband)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979/51 "2020-09-22T20:28:20Z")
I’m sure those were just lone wolves that have nothing to do with anyone else. As ever. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979/52 "2020-09-22T21:59:40Z")
> [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](#): > > I don’t get it. It’s pronounced like “youth in asia.” Of course, not all anime characters are youths. Though it is a fact that the larger the robot the piloting, the younger you’re likely to be. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979/53 "2020-09-22T22:07:01Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > That’s because, by and large, pro-lifers do not consider the black men killed by cops to be “innocent.” They believe that the vast majority of those were justified shootings; i.e., a black man pulling out a gun on cops or something. No, the reality they just don’t are perfectly fine with black people being murdered by police, and come up with outright lies that contradict reality to justify ending those lives so they can get back to harassing women. There’s no way any reasonable person will believe that a person on the ground sobbing and begging for their life with their hands up is going for a gun, and there’s video of so many incidents with circumstances like that there’s no excuse for claiming something contrary to documented fact. Also, ‘justified shooting’ is a gross attempt to reframe what happens that I’ve seen a lot - it’s common for police murders to not actually involve shooting at all, and instead involve choke holds, beatings, forced administration of drugs, excessive restraint, and other more personal murder methods. But it’s harder to reframe ‘that 13-year-old autistic kid who was already restrained needed to be pumped full of ketamine’ or ‘police continued to apply the choke hold for six minutes after he stopped moving, then put him into restraints, then waited eleven minutes to notice that he wasn’t breathing and call paramedics’ into a justified shooting. Pro-lifers may well have an invented narrative to justify not being ‘pro-life’ when it involves black people who aren’t fetuses, but it’s transparently false bullshit, not some actual reasonable justification. ---
**Author:** ![Pantastic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3bc359/32.png) [@Pantastic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pantastic)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979/54 "2020-09-22T22:13:50Z")
> [@Dark\_Sponge](#): > > Have you ever been to a pro-life protest? I have. It was completely quiet and peaceful (on the pro-life side). > > The day consisted of a large group of people (around 75% women, 25% men) sitting quietly outside a courthouse holding signs. The ‘other side’ spent the day shouting at the protestors through a bullhorn, calling them bigots & racists, stealing their signs, etc. Try going to one outside of an abortion clinic instead of picking and choosing one with less vile pro-lifers trying to project a good image. And I’m perfectly fine with counter protesters calling bigots and racists exactly what they are. I don’t buy the modern conservative idea that calling out someone for bigotry is being bigoted. > [@](#): > > I’ve really not seen the hate from the pro-life side that most dopers talk about on here. I’m sure there are some horrible pro-life people who have hurt people; there are people like that everywhere. But from what I’ve seen it’s a tiny minority. I disagree. The vast majority of people who say they are “pro-life” are in favor of treating human women as mere incubators for an unwanted fetus, which is a vile and horrible thing to inflict on a person. The entire movement is about punishing women, it’s not just a tiny minority that wants to treat a fetus as a life to punish women for being ‘too slutty’ but not do anything to support the fetus once it grows into a person and to not do anything about outright murders, like the police killings BLM protests against. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2020, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979/55 "2020-09-22T22:24:46Z")
Might I suggest moving this back-and-forth over the meaning and intentions of Pro-Life to a different topic? For example, just last May **Velocity** asked, > [@"Pro-lifers want to control women's bodies" - Okay, but........why?](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/834330): > > (Splitting off from the other abortion threads a bit): It’s often said that the real motive of pro-lifers is not to preserve unborn life, as they claim, but rather, “to control women’s bodies.” Okay, let’s say that is the case - but why? What do they get out of controlling women’s bodies? Does it provide them with a thrill - a pleasure strong enough to rally hundreds of thousands of people to the March for Life every year and also to keep a multi-decade-long fight going against Roe, and enou… ~Max ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979/56 "2020-09-23T18:04:19Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > Might I suggest moving this back-and-forth over the meaning and intentions of Pro-Life to a different topic? For example, just last May **Velocity** asked, Okay, but which meaning of “Pro-Life” should be this thread be about? We have to pick one, or else the thread topic is “Is [amorphous undefined] Inconsistent with Euthanasia?” ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979/57 "2020-09-23T18:42:18Z")
There are different meanings of “euthanasia”, too. My vision for the topic is that somebody would argue that their personal position is pro-life and pro-euthanasia, and then anybody who finds that interesting would pick their brains, and maybe everybody would learn something. I did so with **Aji\_de\_Gallina** / **Chronos**. **Chronos** did not personally endorse any form of pro-life or euthanasia, but that’s fine too. I learned how the principle of dual effect applies to euthanasia. I hope they learned that painkillers in the palliative care setting probably don’t accelerate death, and so dual effect might not be implicated. It’s very interesting stuff, in my opinion. I did not want to read people argue about the one true definition of Pro-Life. It seems easy enough to say, “this form of pro-life is consistent with this form of euthanasia”, and then respond to that particular argument; or to say “this form of pro-life is inconsistent with this form of euthanasia”, and then respond to that particular argument. Mind you, I’m not a moderator and you are not bound by my wishes. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979/58 "2020-09-23T19:04:05Z")
Okay. The form of Pro-Life that I consider to be the most common form of “Pro-Life” is, as best I can tell, entirely consistent with euthanasia, since it’s not worried about the lives of anybody who has actually been born. Which is not to say that all persons hewing to the most common form of Pro-Life will be pro-euthanasia; that form of Pro-Life mandates nothing either way on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Max\_S](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/46a35a/32.png) [@Max\_S](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Max_S)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979/59 "2020-09-23T19:08:59Z")
I gathered so much from your post #32. The argument seems reasonable enough: if a person is Pro-Life on the basis of banning abortion _qua_ abortion and eliminating reproductive freedom, they can support euthanasia without being inconsistent. There’s no reason to debate, nor even to assert, that most people who identify with the Pro-Life movement fall into your argument. ~Max ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2020, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979/60 "2020-09-23T19:20:48Z")
> [@Max\_S](#): > > nor even to assert I was using the “most common” label to identify which variant of “Pro-Life” was talking about. As you imply in your OP there are lots of different flavors of it, possibly including people who think it means “is in favor of eating cheese” or somesuch. To make my statement accurate I needed to be clear that I was only talking about the common variant, not any of the outliers. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-pro-life-inconsistent-with-euthanasia/920979.md?page=4)