# Is Professional Wrestling a Real Sport? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 25, 2000, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946 "2000-03-25T23:34:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 25, 2000, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946/1 "2000-03-25T23:34:00Z")
I have a recently become a fan of Professional wrestling. I saw the _Hitman Heart: Wrestling with Shadows_ documentary on Biography one night. Then I read a review of _Have a Nice Day_ by Mick Foley , which he wrote himself. I read the book, and thought it was brilliant, so I tuned in one Monday night to see what it was about. I have been addicted since. I can’t wait to see the next installment in the biweekly morality play that is professional wrestling (did you know they steal plotlines from Shakespeare and Homer?) Most of the performers are excellent athletes,routinely doing live stunts and acrobatics that would scare professional circus performs and stuntment. Is it sport? morality play? or what? What the hell does SPorts entertainment mean anyway? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2000, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946/2 "2000-03-26T00:06:00Z")
Highly strenuous activity involving talented performers? Yes. Sport? No. Try to think of it as a _General Hospital_ on steroids. * * * Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. ---
**Author:** ![aschrott](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aca169/32.png) [@aschrott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aschrott)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2000, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946/3 "2000-03-26T00:16:00Z")
Professional wrestlers are obviously extraordinary athletes, and the fact that they manage to do the rediculous things they do in the ring without killing themselves is quite amazing to me. Having said that, it is clearly not a “sport” in the _competitive_ sense, since even insiders will tell you that matches are staged, fixed, and choreographed. It seems to me that the real nature of wrestling (or more to the point, its popular appeal) is that it takes the “us vs. them” fan mentality to an extreme. The kind of partisan routing that you see at a basketball or football game is the same sort of thing, but in wrestling there is no pretense of sportsmanship or gallantry. I think that’s the real source of the “morality play” side of wrestling. They set one guy up as the hero and one as the villain simply so that people can feel the satisfaction of seeing “justice” done–the bad guy beaten into a pulp (or faking it nicely), and the good guy standing triumphantly over him shouting insults, etc. The fans don’t have to decide who to cheer for like they do at a real sports event (in which case their team might not win). In wrestling it is always made perfectly clear who is _supposed_ to win, and so everyone can be behind that guy to cheer when he wins, or express outrage when he doesn’t (usually because some random group of bad guys runs into the ring swinging fold-up furniture–not because the bad guy wins fair and square). I agree it has a certain fascination, but give me real competition instead. I’d rather watch curling. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2000, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946/4 "2000-03-26T00:41:00Z")
Not a real competition? I disagree. Wrestling IS a real sport. Of c ourse the matches are fixed. That’s why they call it “Sports Entertainment.” It’s a real sport nonetheless. Wrestling is an intense competition among the athletes to outdo each other both in and out of the ring to garner fan approval (or scorn.) Those that succeed in getting the thumbs-up from the audience on this basis become superstars. They compete with each other, but hte fans determine the winners. In this sense it is not unlike the gladiatorial sports of ancient rome. Let’s see: 1. Real competition 2. highly trained athletes sounds like a sport to me. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2000, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946/5 "2000-03-26T02:18:00Z")
Scylla, it is NOT a sport. There are no rules that can be broken, there is no judging of the competition except by Neilsen poll, the less talented win over the more talented on a regular basis, and the outcome is pre-determined. Can you come up with any _legitimate_ sport that is this rigged? * * * Eagles may soar free and proud, but weasels never get sucked into jet engines. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2000, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946/6 "2000-03-26T02:42:00Z")
slythe: you said: “There are no rules that can be broken, there is no judging of the competition except by Neilsen poll,” I assume you meant there are no rules that CAN’T be broken. Not true. Wrestling is internally consistent. In a normal match you can’t use a foreign object (unless you get somebody to distract the referree) without being disqualified. In a no-disqualification match you will never see a wrestler pull a gun and shoot his opponent, or use a taser, though technically he could do so within the confines of the rules. If they did wrestling would lose its internal consistency. There is precedent for victory by acclaim in professional sports. I again cite the Roman gladiators as an example. Look at ice skating. You go out on the ice and perform a pre-ordained routine just like wrestling. Half your mark is technical merit (did you fall, did you excecute well,) the other half is the highly subjective artistic merit (how did the whole thing look.) If you judged today’s standard pro-wrestling match by the same criteria (did you perform your match with technical adeptness, and did the whole match work on an artistic basis) with a panel of judges, would it then be a sport? Aren’t the fans looking for the same thing? WHy are 5 judges superior to 50,000 fans? If there is no knockout, boxing is judged by panel, and its history is rife with highly questionable decisions as well as rule breaking. Yet its acceptance as a sport is widespread. Many many “legitimate sports” are judged by this basis and nobody doubts they are sports. Wrestling is saddled with the history of the lie that it was “real fighting.” Now that statement is no longer made. Why can’t it be accepted on its own merits as the performance sport that it is? ---
**Author:** ![Jois](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ea666f/32.png) [@Jois](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jois)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2000, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946/7 "2000-03-26T02:47:00Z")
Can you come up with any legitimate sport that is this rigged? Of course not! * * * Are you driving with your eyes open or are you using The Force? - A. Foley ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2000, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946/8 "2000-03-26T02:48:00Z")
You also said: “the less talented win over the more talented on a regular basis, and the outcome is pre-determined.” Upsets occur in other sports as well you know. No, it is not always pre-ordained. Look at “Stone Cold” Steve Austin. He was set up to be the ultimate bad guy. He lied, cheated, used obscenity, kicked the good-guys when they were down etc. THe funny thing was that he pulled it off so well that the fans liked him. A lot (I don’t know that this says anything too good about your average wrestling fan.) So he became a good guy, and a champion based on his merit as an athlete and showman. Same thing with The Undertaker. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2000, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946/9 "2000-03-26T02:50:00Z")
Of course the matches are rigged. But who comes out on top over the long haul isn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Spiritus\_Mundi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c68b51/32.png) [@Spiritus\_Mundi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiritus_Mundi)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2000, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946/10 "2000-03-26T03:06:00Z")
Scylla: Competitioin for popular approval is a hallmark of entertainment. Competition within the rules of a game is a hallmark of sport. Every entertainer competes for the favor of the crowd. That does not make them sportsman. The competition in sport does not depend upon the acclaim of the crowd of the popularity of the competitors. I generally despise the judging process in figure skating, but ostensibly at least the judges evaluate the artistic merit of each program based solely on the actions of the skater(s) not on the reactions of the crowd or their personal preferences for certain individual competitors. Wrestling lacks any such element. The outcome of each individual match is predetermined. The reactions of the crowd are manipulated and determined largely by the popularity of the wrestlers **before** that night’s matches take place. The action in the ring determines nothing. The action in the ring is not contested. The action in the ring is not honest. That is why pro wrestling is not a sport. * * * - The best lack all conviction The worst are full of passionate intensity. \* ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Ed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e19b73/32.png) [@Just\_Ed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Ed)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2000, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946/11 "2000-03-26T03:10:00Z")
Sorry, Scylla, but I couldn’t let this one go: > [@](#): > > In a no-disqualification match you will never see a wrestler . . . use a taser Yep. Goldberg was defeated as the WCW champion due to the use of a taser. Yeah, yeah - I _know_ it was faked - were you saying that they wouldn’t _actually_ use one? I’ve watched wrestling on and off over the last couple of years (WCW, WWF, & ECW), but I found it became too repetitive and, ultimately, boring. Now I still hear about the storylines from the guys at the office, but I only smile and shake my head. It’s just so overblown, overwrought, over-acted, and over-the-top that it’s become self-parody. Sport? I wouldn’t say so, but I _do_ give those guys credit for their athletic ability. * * * The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2000, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946/12 "2000-03-26T03:27:00Z")
Spiritus: While you raise good points, I beg to differ. Ultimately wrestling is judged, by the fans. While what occurs in the ring tonight IS predetermined. It occurs based on the fans reactions and approval to the previous night’s spectacle. The WWF for one is surprisingly scientific in its approach. They use exit polls as fans leave the arena to determine their reactions as well as surveys. They closely monitor the chatrooms, and request feedback from the fans at their website. This determines the future course of matches and the “morality play” as a whole. On top of Stone-cold, and The Undertaker, Mick Foley was hired by the WWF because of his skill in “getting people over.” What that meant was that he was very good at making other people look good when he wrestled with them. He wasn’t supposed to become popular himself. Yet, his talent, training, and experience in wrestling as well as his own odd athleticism made him the fan favorite and superstar he was never supposed to be. Within the internally consistent competition of Professional wrestling, he beat out his competitors and became a superstar. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2000, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946/13 "2000-03-26T03:31:00Z")
Somebody really did use a taser? Wow. So much for that point. Thanks a lot, pal ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2000, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946/14 "2000-03-26T03:44:00Z")
Spiritus: you said: “Competitioin for popular approval is a hallmark of entertainment. Competition within the rules of a game is a hallmark of sport.” Maybe that’s why they call it “Sports entertainment,” because it is a fusion of the two. Certainly it still qualifies as entertainment. The fact that the “winners” are ultimately judged based on popularity does not necessarily disqualify it as a sport. Again, some of the earliest sports were judged by the victory by acclaim criteria. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2000, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946/15 "2000-03-26T05:22:00Z")
A _sporting_ event’s outcome is determined entirely by the performance of the participants. The spectators don’t have a vote, and their approval/disapproval of the actions/rhetoric of the participants is not to be taken into account when the judging takes place. Using this set of criteria, automobile racing can be considered a sport. Chess can be considered a sport (Boris Spassky is one of my favorite athletes 😃 ). A tractor pull can be considered a sport (God help us). Competitive barn raising could be considered a sport (and one that I might be persuaded to pay money to watch, especially if they allowed body checks 😃 ). A _Spartacus_-style gladiator duel is not sport. Bear-baiting is not sport. Gawking at a syphillis victim with \*locomotor ataxis[i/] in a freak show is not sport. And professional wrestling is not sport. However, all of the above _do_ share a common trait, and that is the boorish, doltish, booger-eatin’ lack of class inherently resident in its audience. No offense. ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2000, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946/16 "2000-03-26T05:29:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Scylla: > **…Wrestling is saddled with the history of the lie that it was “real fighting.” Now that statement is no longer made. Why can’t it be accepted on its own merits as the performance sport that it is?** Good answer! I’ve always been annoyed by the fact that people can’t accept the incredible spectacle that wrestling is, knowing that it isn’t the sport that it pretends to be (i.e. competetive wrestling). Although I still don’t consider it a sport. It’s more like a traveling theater company. Everybody is trying to give the most spectacular performance they’re able to, but there really isn’t a competetive element, per se (per se is greek for “but there’s lots of blood”). The most popular performers survive, and the less popular ones fade away. But this is a disagreement I can live with. What I can’t tolerate though, are people who claim that pro wrestlers aren’t real athletes. I think they are among the most amazing athletes ever. In addition to being top caliber professional stuntmen. wrestling is cool. huh-huh. huh-huh. heh-heh. yeah! wrestling kicks ass! heh-heh. _slap_ sorry. don’t know what came over me… * * * ## If you say it, mean it. If you mean it, do it. If you do it, live it. If you live it, say it. Joe Cool ---
**Author:** ![Joe\_Cool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecb155/32.png) [@Joe\_Cool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joe_Cool)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2000, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946/17 "2000-03-26T05:33:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Scylla: > **…Mick Foley…** Mick Foley is from Hot Springs (now renamed to Truth or Consequences), New Mexico. Ted DiBiasi learned to wrestle at a pro wrestling academy that used to be in Albuquerque, NM. We now return you to your regularly scheduled thread… * * * ## If you say it, mean it. If you mean it, do it. If you do it, live it. If you live it, say it. Joe Cool ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2000, 10:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946/18 "2000-03-26T10:23:00Z")
Professional Wrestling is an artificial sport. Is everyone happy now? Foley is God. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2000, 2:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946/19 "2000-03-26T14:19:00Z")
Kaylasdad: you said: "A sporting event’s outcome is determined entirely by the performance of the participants. " Awright Bub, let me see your license, registration, and a cite for that definition. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2000, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946/20 "2000-03-26T16:02:00Z")
Sorry, the information you request does not exist. I stipulate that the definition (although my post did not label it to be one) was arrived at intuitively. That does not mean it is not valid. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-professional-wrestling-a-real-sport/17946.md?page=2)