# Is propping up a dying industry with taxpayer money socialism? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 5, 2018, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-propping-up-a-dying-industry-with-taxpayer-money-socialism/815472 "2018-06-05T17:08:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-propping-up-a-dying-industry-with-taxpayer-money-socialism/815472/41 "2018-06-07T06:29:22Z")
> [@kopek](#): > > I went sort of. I think of it more in terms of “social democrat”/German form of socialism that actual social-collectivism somewhere but a really good name escapes me at the moment. Maybe National Socialism? ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 11:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-propping-up-a-dying-industry-with-taxpayer-money-socialism/815472/42 "2018-06-07T11:06:47Z")
It’s pulling money from those people not in a dying industry to breath artificial life to a dying industry in order to buy votes in western Pennsylvania and West Virginia and thus entrench Republicans in power at the expense of our health and the health of our planet. ---
**Author:** ![rbroome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/838e76/32.png) [@rbroome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rbroome)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2018, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-propping-up-a-dying-industry-with-taxpayer-money-socialism/815472/43 "2018-06-07T14:02:47Z")
It is sort of. The Government is subsidizing the coal industry. Their opinions/decisions matter to the coal industry. What the Government wants suddenly becomes a significant factor in running those businesses. So in effect Government subsidies introduce a modicum of socialism into that industry. A lot of subsidies means that the Government effectively owns the business. A little means that they have a little bit of control. Of course this allows us to conclude that in the US, and in virtually every country, there is some degree of socialism. That is neither a surprise nor controversial. In fact, I can’t think of and period in any country where there wasn’t some form of state control over business. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-propping-up-a-dying-industry-with-taxpayer-money-socialism/815472/44 "2018-06-08T13:14:55Z")
How is propping up a bunch of fat-cat capitalist worker-exploiters _socialism_? The Government isn’t subsidising the _coal industry_, it’s subsidising the _mine owners_, and any benefit to the workers is a side effect. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-propping-up-a-dying-industry-with-taxpayer-money-socialism/815472/45 "2018-06-08T13:20:22Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > How is propping up a bunch of fat-cat capitalist worker-exploiters _socialism_? > > The Government isn’t subsidising the _coal industry_, it’s subsidising the _mine owners_, and any benefit to the workers is a side effect. In this case part of the intent is to keep coal miners working, or at least have them believe they will be able to keep working. The actuality will be different from the intent, but for the purpose of political name calling it will do. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-propping-up-a-dying-industry-with-taxpayer-money-socialism/815472/46 "2018-06-08T13:59:53Z")
Not really. After all, just because the government uses tax money to prop up a dying industry doesn’t mean that the government (or the people) now controls the means of production. > [@MrDibble](#): > > How is propping up a bunch of fat-cat capitalist worker-exploiters socialism? > > The Government isn’t subsidising the coal industry, it’s subsidising the mine owners, and any benefit to the workers is a side effect. Because these things often happen not to prop up ‘a bunch of fat-cat capitalist’ but instead to protect certain jobs (of voters). So, I wouldn’t say this is capitalism either. I’m not sure it’s really part of any economic system, and really is more of a political flaw than anything looking back at past examples of such protectionism. Regardless, it’s really, really stupid. Which is why it’s unsurprising that Trump is all for this sort of thing, which is what he’s trying to do with a lot of his stupid trade war rhetoric. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-propping-up-a-dying-industry-with-taxpayer-money-socialism/815472/47 "2018-06-08T14:53:59Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > In this case part of the intent is to keep coal miners working If that were actually the case, the subsidies could be paid directly to the workers, not the coal companies. I get that there’s political hay to be made by saying it’s for the workers, but that’s irrelevant. Who gets the \*actual \*money? Not the trickle-down scraps - who does the actual subsidy money get paid to? ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-propping-up-a-dying-industry-with-taxpayer-money-socialism/815472/48 "2018-06-08T15:27:17Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > If that were actually the case, the subsidies could be paid directly to the workers, not the coal companies. > > I get that there’s political hay to be made by saying it’s for the workers, but that’s irrelevant. Who gets the \*actual \*money? Not the trickle-down scraps - who does the actual subsidy money get paid to? The workers keep their jobs, so I’d say they get at least some of the money being used to prop up their industry. ---
**Author:** ![Wolf333](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf333/32/3460_2.png) [@Wolf333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolf333)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-propping-up-a-dying-industry-with-taxpayer-money-socialism/815472/49 "2018-06-08T15:30:31Z")
> [@XT](#): > > The workers keep their jobs, so I’d say they get at least some of the money being used to prop up their industry. Or the money is used to pay for automation, costing even more workers their jobs. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-propping-up-a-dying-industry-with-taxpayer-money-socialism/815472/50 "2018-06-08T15:32:34Z")
> [@XT](#): > > The workers keep their jobs, so I’d say they get at least some of the money being used to prop up their industry. A token payment to keep their bosses from the guillotine. What actual percentage of the subsidies ends up as workers’ salaries? Versus bosses’ salaries and shareholders’ profits? ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-propping-up-a-dying-industry-with-taxpayer-money-socialism/815472/51 "2018-06-08T15:38:35Z")
> [@Wolf333](#): > > Or the money is used to pay for automation, costing even more workers their jobs. Or the place shuts down anyway. And the bosses[get their bonuses first](https://trib.com/business/energy/judge-approves-alpha-natural-resources-bonuses-retiree-benefits-hearing-continued/article_57671919-8aa0-5f62-a573-a559e0f08e05.html), but are [freed from any obligation to pay pensions](http://www.heraldcourier.com/news/local/alpha-natural-resources-bankruptcy-final-moving-out/article_986f5b48-a567-51bc-bde6-444a5e1045cf.html) by bankruptcy. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-propping-up-a-dying-industry-with-taxpayer-money-socialism/815472/52 "2018-06-08T16:15:07Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > A token payment to keep their bosses from the guillotine. What actual percentage of the subsidies ends up as workers’ salaries? Versus bosses’ salaries and shareholders’ profits? What do they get paid, as opposed to not getting paid at all if their industry or company is totally shut down (or fully automated)? By and large when industries that were dying have been protected in the past it was to protect the jobs (of the voters) as much or more than protect the rich fat-cats. Now, subsidies for industries that aren’t dying but are subsidized for various reasons…yeah, I’d say that the percentage going to your rich fat-cats in that case would be higher than those going to the workers (since most likely in those cases you are using higher levels of automation in any case). Almost invariably when the government tries to use protectionist methods to protect home grown industries the majority of the money goes to profit…generally at the cost of the consuming public. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-propping-up-a-dying-industry-with-taxpayer-money-socialism/815472/53 "2018-06-08T16:22:28Z")
> [@XT](#): > > What do they get paid, as opposed to not getting paid at all if their industry or company is totally shut down (or fully automated)? Aah - so they should be happy with their gruel, eh, Mr Bumble? Can we at least agree that that’s not socialism, then? Socialism isn’t charity. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-propping-up-a-dying-industry-with-taxpayer-money-socialism/815472/54 "2018-06-08T16:36:47Z")
> [@MrDibble](#): > > Aah - so they should be happy with their gruel, eh, Mr Bumble? Can we at least agree that that’s not socialism, then? Socialism isn’t charity. I already said it’s not socialism, so not sure what point you are trying to make. It certainly has to do with keeping the workers happy, however. You seem to be thinking in terms of the US only, but this sort of protectionism of dying industries has more of a history in Europe than the US, at least from my recollection. I was thinking specifically of the coal workers in the UK when considering the question, or the Luddite movements. The auto industry or farm industry subsidies or bailouts weren’t dying industries that the government/society tried to prop up and keep going past their expiration date to keep large numbers of people from being unemployed. ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-propping-up-a-dying-industry-with-taxpayer-money-socialism/815472/55 "2018-06-08T19:08:21Z")
It’s corporate welfare and cronyism. The government shouldn’t be in the business of picking winners and losers in the economic market. ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2018, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-propping-up-a-dying-industry-with-taxpayer-money-socialism/815472/56 "2018-06-08T19:26:04Z")
> [@Omar\_Little](#): > > It’s corporate welfare and cronyism. > > The government shouldn’t be in the business of picking winners and losers in the economic market. Historically, I believe it was called Mercantilism. We fought a war to get away from it, and now we have it again (and it’s been around a lot longer than the current administration). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-propping-up-a-dying-industry-with-taxpayer-money-socialism/815472.md?page=2)