# Is "provocateur" the right word? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 6, 2005, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-provocateur-the-right-word/325012 "2005-10-06T05:31:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 5:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-provocateur-the-right-word/325012/1 "2005-10-06T05:31:38Z")
I’m writing something about people who make idiotic incendiary statements that even they probably don’t agree with just to get a rise out of others and or some attention for themself. On message boards, of course, they’re _trolls_, but is the best word for those in academic circles _provocateur_ or can you think of a better one? (Examples are Ward Churchill, who I think is more a whore for his name in print than he is half believing of the idiotic comments he’s made on 9-11 and other issues, or on the more sophisticated [how about sophist? That could work too] Gore Vidal, who’ll make comments about how America had no business entering World War 2 even after Pearl Harbor or other nonsense that he’s way too intelligent to truly believe.) ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-provocateur-the-right-word/325012/2 "2005-10-06T05:37:56Z")
If you don’t want to appear too polemical, then I would suggest devil’s advocate. Provocateur to me is too closely associated with the expression agent provocateur, with its idea of someone used by the authorities to encourage an impressionable but otherwise innocent person to commit a crime. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-provocateur-the-right-word/325012/3 "2005-10-06T05:43:14Z")
No, devil’s advocate has the wrong connotation. A devil’s advocate to me is someone who throws out contrary ideas not to get a rise but to point out potential problems with the idea. Provocateur is a perfectly good word for it. Shit-stirrer, if you want to be crude. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-provocateur-the-right-word/325012/4 "2005-10-06T05:51:33Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > No, devil’s advocate has the wrong connotation. A devil’s advocate to me is someone who throws out contrary ideas not to get a rise but to point out potential problems with the idea. Provocateur is a perfectly good word for it. Shit-stirrer, if you want to be crude. Is this an exemplum?! ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-provocateur-the-right-word/325012/5 "2005-10-06T07:04:52Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Is this an exemplum?! Quit stirring up shit! ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 7:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-provocateur-the-right-word/325012/6 "2005-10-06T07:20:33Z")
> [@CynicalGabe](#): > > Quit stirring up shit! I am capable neither of crudity nor crudeness. Crudités, on the other hand, I will nibble on quite happily. And what, pray, is the point of going to the lengths of playing devil’s advocate unless it gives you a rise in addition to any didactic purpose it might have? ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-provocateur-the-right-word/325012/7 "2005-10-06T13:58:05Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > And what, pray, is the point of going to the lengths of playing devil’s advocate unless it gives you a rise in addition to any didactic purpose it might have? Trouble-shooting. Examining ideas from multiple angles. Avoiding groupthink. ---
**Author:** ![BarnOwl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e95f7d/32.png) [@BarnOwl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BarnOwl)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-provocateur-the-right-word/325012/8 "2005-10-06T14:26:42Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > I am capable neither of crudity nor crudeness. Crudités, on the other hand, I will nibble on quite happily. And what, pray, is the point of going to the lengths of playing devil’s advocate unless it gives you a rise in addition to any didactic purpose it might have? I think **CG** was being funny. Well, I hope so because his comment made me laugh. 🙂🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-provocateur-the-right-word/325012/9 "2005-10-06T15:16:39Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > I am capable neither of crudity nor crudeness. Crudités, on the other hand, I will nibble on quite happily. Ooh son, you gotta work on trying you some crudity and crudeness. Twixt the two they beat the everloving shit out of crudités by a quite considerable margin. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2005, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-provocateur-the-right-word/325012/10 "2005-10-06T16:53:03Z")
Agitator works equally well. He’s employing agitprop. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-provocateur-the-right-word/325012/11 "2005-10-07T01:59:33Z")
> [@E = mc²](#): > > I think **CG** was being funny. Well, I hope so because his comment made me laugh. CG and I were engaging in a bit of banter taking the piss out of Otto’s stentorian “NO”. Thanks for pouring oil on the water, but it was perhaps misplaced… ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-provocateur-the-right-word/325012/12 "2005-10-07T03:28:18Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > CG and I were engaging in a bit of banter taking the piss out of Otto’s stentorian “NO”. Taking the piss out of **Otto’s** answer was misplaced as well, since he was correct. Devil’s advocate would definitely not be appropriate in this context. And **Otto’s** response was hardly stentorian. From Merriam Webster: > [@](#): > > Main Entry: devil’s advocate > Function: noun > Etymology: translation of New Latin advocatus diaboli > 1 : a Roman Catholic official whose duty is to examine critically the evidence on which a demand for beatification or canonization rests > 2 : a person who champions the less accepted cause for the sake of argument No indication there of someone who is deliberately trying to stir up trouble. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-provocateur-the-right-word/325012/13 "2005-10-07T03:41:21Z")
Instigator? ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-provocateur-the-right-word/325012/14 "2005-10-07T03:42:32Z")
From [Dictionary.com](http://Dictionary.com): > [@](#): > > instigator > > n 1: someone who deliberately foments trouble; “she was the instigator of their quarrel” [syn: provoker, inciter, instigant, firebrand] ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 3:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-provocateur-the-right-word/325012/15 "2005-10-07T03:51:55Z")
_Gadfly_ would also be close. > [@](#): > > Main Entry: gad·fly > 1 : any of various flies (as a horsefly, botfly, or warble fly) that bite or annoy livestock > 2 : a person who stimulates or annoys especially by persistent criticism ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-provocateur-the-right-word/325012/16 "2005-10-07T03:53:04Z")
Dictionaries are always rather behind the times. It might also be argued that they represent the views of their compilers (especially their original compiler, who may have lived in a different era, and is typically long dead) better than they represent popular usage. Language also changes, of course. Thus, as much support might be found for the meaning of 1) someone who takes a contrary position, simply because it is contrary, or indeed of 2) someone who _pretends_ to hold an opinion in order to make an argument more interesting. Indeed, such support is found. You might wish to look up the Collins COBUILD English dictionary, which is based on a corpus of more than 200 million words of English of the 1990s, for example, which gives meaning 2) above. As for ‘stentorian’, I think it captures the tone of Otto’s post nicely. Perhaps ‘dogmatic’ would have been more accurate. And more appropriate for a consideration of ‘devil’s advocate’, given its ecclesiastic connections. ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ccd318/32.png) [@Paul\_in\_Qatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_in_Qatar)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-provocateur-the-right-word/325012/17 "2005-10-07T04:09:47Z")
If he is \*\*obstructing \*\* your efforts he is an **obstructionist.** Perhaps he is **sand-bagging** you and your project. He may be simply using an **attention-getting device** to **grandstand.** (Attention-geting device is a great one due to its hint of immaturity.) He might be using a **strawman** to misdirect the effort. (Although strawmen have their uses in the thought process.) Perhaps he is simply being **stubborn, stiff-necked** or **obdurate**. Perhaps something else will spring to mind. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-provocateur-the-right-word/325012/18 "2005-10-07T04:18:37Z")
> [@roger thornhill](#): > > Thus, as much support might be found for the meaning of 1) someone who takes a contrary position, simply because it is contrary, or indeed of 2) someone who _pretends_ to hold an opinion in order to make an argument more interesting. That’s still not what the OP was asking about. “Devils’ advocate” just doesn’t have the incendiary connotation that was described. > [@roger thornhill](#): > > As for ‘stentorian’, I think it captures the tone of Otto’s post nicely. :dubious: I’m not at all convinced you know what “stentorian” means: > [@](#): > > Main Entry: sten·to·ri·an > Function: adjective > : extremely loud > [@roger thornhill](#): > > Perhaps ‘dogmatic’ would have been more accurate. And more appropriate for a consideration of ‘devil’s advocate’, given its ecclesiastic connections. > [@](#): > > Main Entry: dog·mat·ic > Function: adjective > 1 : characterized by or given to the use of dogmatism \ > 2 : of or relating to dogma > [@](#): > > Main Entry: dog·ma·tism > 1 : positiveness in assertion of opinion especially when unwarranted or arrogant > 2 : a viewpoint or system of ideas based on insufficiently examined premises Since \*\*Otto’s \*\* statement was neither unwarranted (he was correct in his objection) nor arrogant (note his use of “to me” in his second sentence) I think you are wrong on this one as well. ---
**Author:** ![roger\_thornhill](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@roger\_thornhill](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/roger_thornhill)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2005, 4:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-provocateur-the-right-word/325012/19 "2005-10-07T04:30:22Z")
Re brazen-voiced Stentor, may I recommend Samuel Butler’s translation. That’s The Iliad, by Homer. One of my set texts at school.