# Is psychiatry dishonest? Is it better for everyone if keeps faking diagnostic assurance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 6, 2013, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596 "2013-05-06T02:45:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596/101 "2013-05-09T17:30:25Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > I’m sitting on a girl who is on her hands and knees. Chair? > [@Nava](#): > > **Nzinga** , you changed your name! Haha! I had always pictured a male subject, but ok. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596/102 "2013-05-09T17:31:27Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I don’t know of any standard treatment methods but they would fail to help everyone. It is true that there is no single therapy that perfectly helps everyone. That doesn’t mean that Rogerian therapy would help people who had failed to be helped by CBT first. > [@](#): > > People are unique and will not fit into methods or rituals of any kind. People are more similar than they are dissimilar. In fact, more people “fit into” CBT treatment methods “or rituals” than “fit into” other models. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596/103 "2013-05-09T17:32:30Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I don’t know of any standard treatment methods but they would fail to help everyone. > People are unique and will not fit into methods or rituals of any kind. Except yours, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596/104 "2013-05-09T17:32:50Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > If you had those genes you would be taller with curly hair. But if I had genes for schizophrenia, my consciousness can turn them on or off? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596/105 "2013-05-09T17:33:05Z")
> [@Nzinga\_Seated](#): > > Haha! I had always pictured a male subject, but ok. Be careful what you say! But just so you know, **Trinopus** is a man, baby! ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596/106 "2013-05-09T17:35:49Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Be careful what you say! > > But just so you know, **Trinopus** is a man, baby! [**Trinopus** is a man baby?](http://www.google.com/search?q=man+baby&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=_d2LUfPmF8aw4QT8yYDYBg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1164&bih=835#imgrc=ZVi0qMA0sOygKM%3A%3BiNRNBxQNab25YM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.commercekitchen.com%252Fwp-content%252Fuploads%252F2012%252F02%252Fawkward-stock-photos-man-baby-560x839.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.commercekitchen.com%252F2012%252F02%252Fawkward-stock-photos%252F%3B560%3B839) ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596/107 "2013-05-09T17:39:03Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > But if I had genes for schizophrenia, my consciousness can turn them on or off? From past **lekatt** experience, the curative agent is… love. Maybe things have changed, so that it’s all consciousness (and ball bearings) these days. But I suspect that love can fix your genes for you. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596/108 "2013-05-09T17:42:54Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am talking about cures, I understand drugs can make you happy until they wear off. Hey, look at that, I was right again. ---
**Author:** ![Human\_Action](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ac91a4/32.png) [@Human\_Action](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Human_Action)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596/109 "2013-05-09T17:43:12Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > From past **lekatt** experience, the curative agent is… love. Maybe things have changed, so that it’s all consciousness (and ball bearings) these days. But I suspect that love can fix your genes for you. Interesting, if true, because the difference between claiming that a spritual realm exists beyond the physical (and beyond the reach of science), and that the spiritual realm can affect the physical realm (such as manipulating genes, or the brain) is huge, because physical effects can be tested and measured. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596/110 "2013-05-09T17:52:15Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Interesting, if true, because the difference between claiming that a spritual realm exists beyond the physical (and beyond the reach of science), and that the spiritual realm can affect the physical realm (such as manipulating genes, or the brain) is huge, because physical effects can be tested and measured. Now that you mention it, I may be confusing him with another woo advocate named… well, I don’t want to say it, because he might show up and we could reach a critical woo mass. Or perhaps I should say an uncritical unconditional woo mass. But the “love cures all” woo guy might not have been **lekatt**. ---
**Author:** ![Nzinga\_Seated](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/b5ac83/32.png) [@Nzinga\_Seated](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nzinga_Seated)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596/111 "2013-05-09T18:28:17Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Be careful what you say! > > But just so you know, **Trinopus** is a man, baby! I know Trinopus is a man, but he said the ‘chair’ is a girl. I always pictured the chair more like [this](http://www.xblafans.com/wp-content/uploads//2011/06/Deadliest-Warrior-Legends-Shaka-Zulu.jpg). But yes, to clarify, I am not insinuating in any form, way or fashion that I would desire for Trinopus himself to be my chair or any other piece of furniture or appliance for me. No harrasso. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596/112 "2013-05-09T20:01:25Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > It is true that there is no single therapy that perfectly helps everyone. That doesn’t mean that Rogerian therapy would help people who had failed to be helped by CBT first.People are more similar than they are dissimilar. In fact, more people “fit into” CBT treatment methods “or rituals” than “fit into” other models. I understand that schools producing counselors must have a standard course because their students are unique also. I have studied Cognitive-Behavior Therapy off and on through the years and find it faulted. There is an attempt to make the patient face their fears with the idea that is the way to overcome them. Some fears like fear of hell or demons which can never be faced. There are many other fears that also can’t be faced. I prefer a teaching and understanding type of mentoring. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596/113 "2013-05-09T20:03:54Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Except yours, of course. I am not 100% successful, no one ever is. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596/114 "2013-05-09T20:07:07Z")
> [@Human\_Action](#): > > Interesting, if true, because the difference between claiming that a spritual realm exists beyond the physical (and beyond the reach of science), and that the spiritual realm can affect the physical realm (such as manipulating genes, or the brain) is huge, because physical effects can be tested and measured. If is nothing new, biofeedback was invented long ago. The therapist provides the love that heals through empathy and concern and compassion. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596/115 "2013-05-09T20:08:51Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Now that you mention it, I may be confusing him with another woo advocate named… well, I don’t want to say it, because he might show up and we could reach a critical woo mass. Or perhaps I should say an uncritical unconditional woo mass. But the “love cures all” woo guy might not have been **lekatt**. There is no such thing as woo, but love is everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![HoneyBadgerDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/honeybadgerdc/32/1033_2.png) [@HoneyBadgerDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HoneyBadgerDC)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596/116 "2013-05-09T20:16:27Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > If is nothing new, biofeedback was invented long ago. > > The therapist provides the love that heals through empathy and concern and compassion. ``` I kind of believe we are more mechanical than most would like to believe. I feel like we are getting a constant flow of chemicals into our brains that are telling us it feels good or it feels bad. If we learned to stimulate these feel good chemicals through bad bevavior of one kind or another thats just what we know. Reconditioning in these cases I feel is possible. Feeling safe and secure, feeling like we have a place in our family and community and are appeciated and liked, being creative and appreciated for our creativeness all send positive signals and if reinforced I believe can lead to healing ``` ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596/117 "2013-05-09T20:35:51Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I understand that schools producing counselors must have a standard course because their students are unique also. I have studied Cognitive-Behavior Therapy off and on through the years and find it faulted. There is an attempt to make the patient face their fears with the idea that is the way to overcome them. Some fears like fear of hell or demons which can never be faced. There are many other fears that also can’t be faced. I prefer a teaching and understanding type of mentoring. Given this “understanding,” I recommend a healthy dose of that self-doubt we spoke of earlier. Perhaps that would lead you to wisdom, because you’re on the wrong track right now. ---
**Author:** ![deltasigma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e5b9ba/32.png) [@deltasigma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/deltasigma)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596/118 "2013-05-09T20:48:16Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Specifically, I said that cognitive-behavioral therapy (CBT) is the best treatment for anxiety, depression and behavioral problems. The evidence for this is vast and robust. For anxiety, you can look at Compton et al (2004) in the Journal of the American Academy of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry (JAACAP), 43(8). > > Two meta-analyses, of many, that you could check would be > > In-Albon & Schneider (2007) in Psychotherapy and Psychosomatics, 76(1). > > Mitte (2005) in Psychological Bulletin, 131(5). > > For depression, again among many, there’s de Maat et al (2007) in European Psychiatry, 22. > > for behavioral disorders, Eyberg, Nelson and Boggs (2008) provide a comprehensive review. > > Chorpita et al (2011) in Clinical Psychology Science and Practice provide an overview across types of disorders. > > You can also check the Practice Parameter documents from JAACAP. Really. And not one reference is available on line that you could provide a link too. How umm. . . convenient. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596/119 "2013-05-09T20:52:28Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > Really. And not one reference is available on line that you could provide a link too. How umm. . . convenient. So now stuff is not true if its not online and free, huh? Can’t trust those pesky scientific journals with their filthy paywalls. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2013, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596/120 "2013-05-09T20:53:32Z")
> [@deltasigma](#): > > Really. And not one reference is available on line that you could provide a link too. How umm. . . convenient. 😕 Typically, scientific literature is not freely available. Some may be. Are you affiliated with an academic library? This literature is vast. I’ll go back and see what I can link to, but it would also help if you could specify what you want to know. Your original request (is therapy effective?) is more general than what I said. So, what can I go and get for you, sir? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-psychiatry-dishonest-is-it-better-for-everyone-if-keeps-faking-diagnostic-assurance/657596.md?page=7)