# Is Publicly-Shaming A Miscreant On The Internet The Right Thing To Do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 29, 2018, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001 "2018-06-29T16:50:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DavidwithanR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/3bc359/32.png) [@DavidwithanR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidwithanR)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001/41 "2018-06-30T04:46:36Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > It’s a dangerous tool, and you have to be careful. But it’s also a very useful tool when used correctly. > > I also refuse to both of these the same: the people who use speech (including shaming) and those who do illegal things like death threats or harassment. I will accept responsibility for the speech, since I gave them the info they need to speak. I absolutely will not take responsibility of those who commit those acts of violence. That is the true hecklers video, where the fear of violence prevents speech. > > That said, we do need to be careful to have our information correct, and not to overreact. If I’m part of the people unleashing the storm against someone who doesn’t deserve it, and something bad happens due to the speech, then I am responsible. If you were, accidentally but definitively, “responsible” for denying a person an income for many years, would you actually be “responsible” and donate your income to them? ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001/42 "2018-06-30T04:47:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Or Adam Mark Smith? He was rude to a Chick-Fil-A worker on YouTube. Had to sell his house and move to a new city. > Or Justine Sacco. She’s the public relations executive who tweeted, “Going to Africa. Hope I don’t get AIDS. Just kidding. I’m white!” T\*\*hanks to public shaming, she lost her job and was left wandering in the wilderness.\* > > _On August 1, 2012, Smith posted a video of himself haranguing a Chick-fil-A employee at a drive-through. The chain had become a political football in the aftermath of an executive’s statements about gay marriage, and Smith didn’t like the stance. > “I was thinking I was going to make a difference,” he told CNN._ > … > \*The video went viral, and Smith – the CFO of a Tucson, Arizona-based medical device manufacturer – lost his well-paying job. > That was bad enough, but things were going to get worse. Over the next 72 hours, his e-mail was filled with vitriolic threats. His personal information was released, including the address for his children’s school. Letters were nailed to his front door. > …What’s been more discouraging has been how the episode has dogged him. On the advice of an attorney, he kept the incident private after taking a new job in Portland, Oregon, only to be asked to resign when the news got out. Since then, he’s been up-front with prospective employers and even been offered jobs, but before long, they pull back – even if they were initially OK with the information. > It’s been rough, he says. > “I went into depression, and I had to pull myself out of this place where I had to realize that that was not who I am,” he said. At one point, he says, he considered suicide. At least that way his family could be provided for. There has to be more to the story. How many people out there are named Adam Mark Smith? Was someone out there finding out where he was applying for jobs, and then sending them this video? It reminds me, in its own way, of the long-standing urban legend about a girl who was caught masturbating with a frozen hot dog, and her family had to move out of town because of the harassment - and the moving truck was greeted at the new location by townspeople who heard the story long before they ever met the family. ---
**Author:** ![PatrickLondon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/patricklondon/32/4422_2.png) [@PatrickLondon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PatrickLondon)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001/43 "2018-06-30T05:07:14Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > But you have to be careful. I remember a film which illustrated this. The first shot showed what appeared to be a thug (possibly denim-clad skinhead / punk) attacking an older gentleman; the second shot showed that the ‘thug’ was actually shoving the gentleman out of the way of a falling pallet of (IIRC) bricks. That was a TV advert in the UK for the Guardian \ ---
**Author:** ![Roderick\_Femm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/roderick_femm/32/14875_2.png) [@Roderick\_Femm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Roderick_Femm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001/44 "2018-06-30T05:59:58Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Mob justice is an oxymoron. It must truly be the apocalypse - I find myself agreeing with **octopus**. > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > It’s a tool, and like any tool, it can be used justly or misused. Sometimes it’s just, sometimes it’s not. Depends on the circumstances, IMO. Lynching is a tool too. What about those cattle rustlers out at Ox-Bow? Some of them might have been guilty. > [@mikecurtis](#): > > Why do you get to decided who deserves it and who does not? If I have a different opinion of who deserves shaming who wins? Why stop with shaming videos that only some will see? Why not force the offenders to wear a scarlet A(sshole) when in in public? > Many of you who are fine with shaming videos are not so fine with it when it’s done by teenagers - calling it cyber-bullying. . .what’s the difference? And if you don’t think cyber-bullying has long lasting or even permanent consequences then you aren’t paying attention. > Most families these days require 2 paychecks to survive. By shaming someone into losing their job you are in effect punishing the rest of their family for their actions. > Those of you who are so outraged at the current brouhaha surrounding punishing children for the decisions of their parents to come to this country without paperwork. how do you reconcile punishing the children of these “so called” assholes? > Shaming videos are forever. whether or not they were justified, whether or not they’ve made amends. Where are the viral videos of the shamed realizing the errors of her ways and repenting and apologizing to those they have harmed? why don’t we get to see the rest of the story? They just get shamed forever? > > mc Repeated for emphasis, and agreement. So being a bigot is the kiss of death, is it? The line which no-one shall cross? Beyond the pale and beyond redemption? Whatever happens to them, they deserve it? We’re willing to rehabilitate murderers, but if you express bigotry, then god will have to forgive you because I sure won’t? What is that term I hate? Oh yeah, virtue signaling. Grow up. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 8:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001/45 "2018-06-30T08:52:22Z")
> [@HeyHomie](#): > > You know all the stories: the lawyer who threatened to call Immigration on restaurant employees for speaking Spanish. The woman who called the cops on a little African American girl for selling water. The other woman who called the cops on an African American family for BBQing the wrong place. The woman who hassled black kids at a pool for Swimming While Black. All have been publicly shamed, most (all?) have lost their jobs - or at least lost business. > > But is this the right thing to do? In all the examples you named? Damn straight. Sunlight \*is \*the best disinfectant. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001/46 "2018-06-30T08:54:24Z")
> [@Skara\_Brae](#): > > Right, but the fallout is not always limited to that person. Remember the idiot that dressed as a Boston Marathon victim on Halloween? People published her parents and best friends addresses and were calling and threatening to burning their house down. The problem there isn’t the publicizing, it’s the violent idiots responding. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001/47 "2018-06-30T08:58:25Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I’ve never done anything to be ashamed of, including that time I vomited on a koala. > _Especially_ that time I vomited on a koala. [The koala](https://i.kinja-img.com/gawker-media/image/upload/c_scale,f_auto,fl_progressive,q_80,w_800/biomyfapyzkqpepg5o8q.jpg) remembers… ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 9:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001/48 "2018-06-30T09:03:50Z")
> [@mikecurtis](#): > > Many of you who are fine with shaming videos are not so fine with it when it’s done by teenagers - calling it cyber-bullying. . .what’s the difference? The same reason teenagers can’t legally drive, buy booze or have sex, would be my guess. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 11:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001/49 "2018-06-30T11:16:21Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > Lynching is a tool too. What about those cattle rustlers out at Ox-Bow? Some of them might have been guilty. I don’t think these things are comparable. Publicly criticizing someone is not killing them. Further, in very rare circumstances (not any from actual historical lynchings that I’m aware of), killing someone might be the morally just thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![Kempton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ee7513/32.png) [@Kempton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kempton)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 11:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001/50 "2018-06-30T11:20:30Z")
I don’t think it’s relevant whether the perpetrator deserved it or not. The question for me is whether it’s a fair process that isn’t prone to abuse and can reliably deliver justice. I don’t think it can given the nature of the internet so I’m not a fan. ---
**Author:** ![Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/budget_player_cadet/32/205_2.png) [@Budget\_Player\_Cadet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Budget_Player_Cadet)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001/51 "2018-06-30T12:24:21Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > They should be publicly shamed. Fuck those people. Anyone moronic enough to call the cops on a little girl selling lemonade deserves to be publicly shamed. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Well, what happens if she didnt actually call the cops on that little girl? > [@SmartAleq](#): > > [Permit Patty is in for even more raking over the coals of the internet, as she lied about never making the call and a news station has released the 911 tape](http://www.ktvu.com/news/listen-permit-patty-calls-911-on-little-girl-despite-claiming-she-never-did). So she’s not only a cunt, she’s a lying cunt. Who deserves whatever opprobrium she gets. Yeaaaahhhhhh… So she _lied_ about whether or not she called the cops, because she thought that lying about calling the cops in order to scare someone was, somehow, better. And in fact she did actually call the cops on a little girl selling lemonade. That’s pretty shitty. Worth ruining her life over? Well, I can’t really stop people from doing that. And if the police had responded, what do you reckon the odds are that this would ruin the little girl’s life? Or end it? Having the cops called on you is a pretty substantial threat. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001/52 "2018-06-30T13:04:59Z")
My concern is that prior to these sorts of videos, white people didn’t believe PoC when they related stories about encounters with racists. “You must have misunderstood” or “I’m sure they didnt really mean it that way” or “you read things into it” or “there are two sides to every story” or whatever. If, as a society, we are going to insist people provide video proof before they are believed, we can’t then say providing video proof is just too cruel. I do have real concerns about how a moment taken out of context can be misconstrued, or even just a joke can fall flat. But I think it’s also true that the targets of abuse are otherwise ignored ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001/53 "2018-06-30T13:27:29Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > My concern is that prior to these sorts of videos, white people didn’t believe PoC when they related stories about encounters with racists. “You must have misunderstood” or “I’m sure they didnt really mean it that way” or “you read things into it” or “there are two sides to every story” or whatever. If, as a society, we are going to insist people provide video proof before they are believed, we can’t then say providing video proof is just too cruel. > > I do have real concerns about how a moment taken out of context can be misconstrued, or even just a joke can fall flat. But I think it’s also true that the targets of abuse are otherwise ignored That’s a great point. With video, it’s harder to deny instances of racism that were previously almost universally dismissed as either misunderstood or trivial. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001/54 "2018-06-30T15:37:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I don’t think these things are comparable. Publicly criticizing someone is not killing them. Further, in very rare circumstances (not any from actual historical lynchings that I’m aware of), killing someone might be the morally just thing to do. It’s not the public critique that is the issue in theory. It’s the fact that the reach and magnitude of the criticism and the reluctance of others to ignore it and let it blow over which leads to financial ruin that is the problem. The punishment is far greater than the crime and any one who is encouraging mob justice or violence in a society where we have to user if imperfect courts for words a person uses is engaging in far more shameful and dangerous behavior than the desired targets of vigilantism. You were a naval officer. Did you wink and nod at unofficial punishments to keep people in line or did you believe in due process with evidence and an impartial hearing? ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001/55 "2018-06-30T15:54:44Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s not the public critique that is the issue in theory. It’s the fact that the reach and magnitude of the criticism and the reluctance of others to ignore it and let it blow over which leads to financial ruin that is the problem. The punishment is far greater than the crime and any one who is encouraging mob justice or violence in a society where we have to user if imperfect courts for words a person uses is engaging in far more shameful and dangerous behavior than the desired targets of vigilantism. > > You were a naval officer. Did you wink and nod at unofficial punishments to keep people in line or did you believe in due process with evidence and an impartial hearing? I understand what you are saying, but that’s a bit of a false dichotomy. If I have a co-worker or person in my social circle who engages in appalling behavior, I don’t need to observe due process before I cut him out of my life, or promote others at work over him, or lay him off first when there’s a RIF. If I am hiring someone and I know one of their references–it’s a person I worked with myself once upon a time-- and that reference says “we had to let him go because we had credible reports that he called a black customer the n-word and suggested she couldn’t be trusted to pay on time”, I feel like I’m justified in not hiring that person. The issue here isn’t the lack of due process. It’s the scale–how widespread and inescapable the consequences are. ---
**Author:** ![CelticKnot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/celticknot/32/3392_2.png) [@CelticKnot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CelticKnot)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001/56 "2018-06-30T16:02:15Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Mob justice is an oxymoron. This. A mob has no self-control, no logic, and cannot be apologized to or reasoned with. I was forced to resign from a job because of toxic gossip. It wasn’t even true, but someone somehow got it into her head that I said something awful, and told everyone else in the community. I had only been there about 2 months, I had no defenders, and was told to resign or be fired. I wasn’t even told what the gossip was until months later, so I had no way to refute it at the time. For someone who thinks there’s no long-term damage, every time I fill out a job application, I have to explain it again. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001/57 "2018-06-30T16:12:22Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > It’s not the public critique that is the issue in theory. It’s the fact that the reach and magnitude of the criticism and the reluctance of others to ignore it and let it blow over which leads to financial ruin that is the problem. The punishment is far greater than the crime and any one who is encouraging mob justice or violence in a society where we have to user if imperfect courts for words a person uses is engaging in far more shameful and dangerous behavior than the desired targets of vigilantism. > > You were a naval officer. Did you wink and nod at unofficial punishments to keep people in line or did you believe in due process with evidence and an impartial hearing? Who is encouraging mob justice or violence? That’s bad. But online criticism isn’t that. Getting fired isn’t that. Due process is for criminal behavior, not public criticism. If someone gets fired or even shuts down their business because they were getting so much criticism, that sucks for them, but that’s not mob justice or violence, that’s individuals speaking out and shopping where they choose. That’s a free society with free communications. So what am I doing wrong? What am I supposed to change in my behavior? I plan to continue to criticize those I think have done something bad, and shop where I want, including considering the behavior of the business owner. What’s wrong with any of that? ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001/58 "2018-06-30T16:15:04Z")
> [@PatrickLondon](#): > > That was a TV advert in the UK for the Guardian \ And therefore a very good one. ---
**Author:** ![Warm\_blood](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/df705f/32.png) [@Warm\_blood](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Warm_blood)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001/59 "2018-06-30T16:22:57Z")
Suppose someone being caught on tape acting like an asshole leads to their business getting boycotted into bankruptcy? Is that mob justice too? Be mindful of how you behave in public if you don’t want to suffer the consequences of social ostracism. It’s ridiculous to think that you should be entitled to such a level of privacy in public that you think people ought to look the other way and pretend they don’t see anything when you’re engaging in flagrantly anti-social behaviour. Obviously death threats, doxxing and other extreme forms of harassment should under no circumstances be tolerated. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2018, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001/60 "2018-06-30T16:40:30Z")
People decrying “mob justice”…do you also decry the unfairness of mug shots being aired on the six o’clock news? Names of criminal suspect being published in the local rag? Also, if public shaming is bad because of the unintended consequences, what about public praise? The same outcome applies, right? If you publicly praise someone for doing a good deed that can be spun in a political way (for instance, helping an immigrant family fill out paperwork), then that person may now be a target of hate. To prevent anything bad from happening to people, should we should not share any news? I think people need to stop acting like being an ass in the public sphere is sacrosanct. There have ALWAYS been social consequences to being an ass. It’s just that the internet allows those consequences to extend past one’s neighborhood. People who play stupid game have ALWAYS won stupid prizes. It’s just now the “stupid prizes” have been stepped up a notch. Now, you don’t just risk getting punched. You might also lose your job. Big whoop. I’ve been told by conservatives that it isn’t that hard to get another one if you work hard enough. If people don’t want to lose their employment based on “shame”, all they have to do is avoid shameful behavior. It really isn’t that hard to avoid being the villain in someone’s “viral video”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-publicly-shaming-a-miscreant-on-the-internet-the-right-thing-to-do/817001.md?page=4)