# Is punctuality a choice? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2007, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553 "2007-02-02T16:05:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2007, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/241 "2007-02-05T23:52:27Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] Okay, so you do not understand. Thanks for clearing that up. (Tho I guess we could debate whether your obduracy reflects a choice or results from a “broken brain”! ;)) [/QUOTE] [Off-topic] This has me wondering about something that I’ve been thinking about recently. If the person that’s responding to you shows an inability or at least an unwillingness for reasoned debate, is it right to smash their points? Recently, I’ve seen someone with a clearly superior reasoning force smash someone with clearly less of a reasoned ability. It was uncomfortable for me to watch. . . .like watching an adult beat a 4 year-old in a basketball game. Any thoughts? If this creates a hijack, I’ll create a new thread, and apologize for hijacking this one, but this has me wondering. [/off-topic] ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/242 "2007-02-06T00:14:57Z")
[QUOTE=Heffalump and Roo] [Off-topic] This has me wondering about something that I’ve been thinking about recently. If the person that’s responding to you shows an inability or at least an unwillingness for reasoned debate, is it right to smash their points? Recently, I’ve seen someone with a clearly superior reasoning force smash someone with clearly less of a reasoned ability. It was uncomfortable for me to watch. . . .like watching an adult beat a 4 year-old in a basketball game. Any thoughts? If this creates a hijack, I’ll create a new thread, and apologize for hijacking this one, but this has me wondering. [/off-topic] [/QUOTE] It’s up to them to abandon the field. Unsupported assertions cannot be allowed to stand. The rules of GD preclude any personal attacks. Arguments rise and fall on their own merits. Usually, someone who is a bit confused will be gently advised to refrain from posting until he can mount a stronger argument. This advice generally falls on deaf ears. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/243 "2007-02-06T00:17:24Z")
[QUOTE=Heffalump and Roo] [Off-topic] This has me wondering about something that I’ve been thinking about recently. If the person that’s responding to you shows an inability or at least an unwillingness for reasoned debate, is it right to smash their points? Recently, I’ve seen someone with a clearly superior reasoning force smash someone with clearly less of a reasoned ability. It was uncomfortable for me to watch. . . .like watching an adult beat a 4 year-old in a basketball game. Any thoughts? If this creates a hijack, I’ll create a new thread, and apologize for hijacking this one, but this has me wondering. [/off-topic] [/QUOTE] Its not clear from your post, and I just gotta know: Who is it you are implying is smashing the other person’s argument? (And who’s the smashee also?) -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/244 "2007-02-06T02:39:09Z")
This has been a very interesting thread. And there have been other threads about the same subject. I’m on time. So is my Wife. That is our nature. And, for myself and my other friends we know that it is important. I do not like to have to worry about my friends unnecessarily. Should I worry, or become slowly aggravated that someone did not do what they said they would do? It’s a rather conflicting position to be in. Are you in the ditch, or are you doing a final post on the SDMB? When you arrive, safe and sound, with no excuse, I will be glad to see you but will wish you had not made me worry about you. Also, I live in the sticks. There is very little other than bad weather (which we get boat loads of) or accidents or break downs that should prevent a person from being on time. I suspect, though, it is the same in the city. Break downs occur, violence occurs. I don’t like to worry. And I avoid it. I have structured my life so that I can avoid problems like lost keys or a wallet that can’t be found. I discovered when I was in grade school that little things like that can save ME and others a lot of grief. Chalk me up to one that does not understand why others can’t do this. For MOST, we really aren’t talking about ADD or brain damage. We are talking about common courtesy. ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/245 "2007-02-06T03:03:18Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] Then they’re drama queens. ‘Damage they can potentially cause’? Puhleeze. At best it’s an inconvenience. People need to get over themselves. Seriously. [/QUOTE] Inconvenience? That’s an awfully slight word to describe missed flights, damaged reputations with business contacts, losing customers, and so forth. On a side note, if ADD involves frontal lobe damage causing a lack of ability to keep track of time, why don’t we see a lot of chronically early (and confused about it) people with ADD? ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/246 "2007-02-06T07:04:50Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] It’s up to them to abandon the field. Unsupported assertions cannot be allowed to stand. The rules of GD preclude any personal attacks. Arguments rise and fall on their own merits. Usually, someone who is a bit confused will be gently advised to refrain from posting until he can mount a stronger argument. This advice generally falls on deaf ears. [/QUOTE] Thanks for your thoughts. I was thinking more of people who don’t know the meaning of unsupported assertions or can’t adequately identify them. Many people don’t have enough perspective to know that they don’t know. > [@Frylock](#): > > Its not clear from your post, and I just gotta know: Who is it you are implying is smashing the other person’s argument? (And who’s the smashee also?) Sorry if you read from my post that I implied that it pertained to this thread. It was a general hypothetical prompted by Dinsdale’s post. Evidently, I should have placed the question in another thread, but I didn’t want to start a new thread for a quick answer. Apologies again to the OP for the hijack. [/end of hijack] ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/247 "2007-02-06T08:00:17Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] You are confusing what she thinks with why she thinks it. “What she thinks” is the behavior, “why she thinks it” is the motivation. [/QUOTE] And unless you can read minds, you have no idea what she thinks. What she does (being late) is the behavior. Why she’s doing it (\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ - I don’t have psychic abilities. I can’t fill in that blank) is the motivation. As soon as you enter into the contents of someone’s thoughts - you’ve hit motivation. Thoguhts are not behaviors. Actions are behaviors. You claim that you know that it’s because “she thinks her time is more important.” You’ve assigned that as the motivation. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 8:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/248 "2007-02-06T08:22:37Z")
I will bold relevant passages throughout; this is my note to that effect: \*\* StarvingButStrong \*\* > [@](#): > > And, frankly, if a boyfriend **doesn’t consider** spending time with you pretty high on his priorities, or is so rude that **he thinks** leaving you to sit around waiting for him needlessly doesn’t matter This is my point. You are stating with great certainty that you know what this person thinks and considers. How can you possibly justify this? \*\*Vinyl Turnip \*\* > [@](#): > > it’s difficult for me to understand how a rational person can fail to realize that consistently failing to fulfill one’s promises, including being where you say you will when you say you will, shows a real lack of consideration toward the person(s) you are inconveniencing with your unreliable behavior. You have your own thoughts and opinions. Others have different thoughts and opinions. It is not all that complimentary to you to state that you are incapable of conceiving that others may not think exactly as you do. It only requires a little imagination. \*\*Stratocaster \*\* > [@](#): > > That’s where the disconnect occurs in this thread. Those “on the other side of the aisle” would counter that you may well tell yourself that you respect these people. **But in practice you don’t do the things you need to do to demonstrate respect, which is more important.** You have created a symbolism that is not shared by everyone. This is your own construct. It is your interpretation that this behaviour construes disrespect. It is not mine. I’m not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that others are required to live by your particular set of rules and symbols. > [@](#): > > The punctuality contingent would tell you that if you can find a way to make it to a “one time event” on time then you’ve conceded that you can decide to be punctual and figure out a way to make that happen. And, for the third time at least, people who deal with people with executive function deficits all know that the deficits do not manifest exactly the same way every single day. After that it just becomes a question of whether you’ll apply that discipline in any given instance or conversely **decide it’s not worth the effort.** [QUOTE] Again, your interpretation. Do you acknowledge that your interpretation could be completely wrong? \*\*So in my mind, when someone makes me wait they have done a similar cost-benefit analysis in their head that told them I am not important enough to pay the price to be punctual. \*\* And again, this is a thought process which you ascribe to them. You cannot possibly know this and therefore only believe it because - well because you feel like it, I guess. > [@](#): > > Someone else in the thread already made the point, that if you needed to show up on time somewhere to get a million dollars, you’d find a way, because that would be important enough for you. Sure. Once. In extraordinary circumstances. Proves nothing. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/249 "2007-02-06T08:25:38Z")
\*\*Shagnasty \*\* > [@](#): > > Like I said before, if people are truly oblivious to the meaning of time, you would expect them to get places early as well as late in nearly equal measure. Well the symptomology is ‘chronic lateness’ along with ‘inability to plan’ and ‘inability to foresee consequences’ so perhaps ‘oblivious to time’ is a misspeak. I think ‘chronically understimating’ is a better characterization. > [@](#): > > Another word for being constantly behind other people is retarded. That is really unnecessary. **Stratocaster** > [@](#): > > For me, chronic lateness is the equivalent of someone promising something, then deliberately not delivering. Over and over again. And in the process inconveniencing me. You may classify this any way you want, but for me it’s not respectful, and it’s hard for me to fathom how someone–even if he disagrees–can’t understand that perspective. Again, it should not be difficult to fathom that not everybody thinks like you. I enjoy figure skating and you may think it’s ridiculous. I hate sushi, which you may adore. Humans are different. Period. This is not a difficult concept. \*\* Vinyl Turnip \*\* > [@](#): > > Even accounting for the percentage that may have ADD, this is a still ultimately a behavioral problem No, it’s an actual busted brain bit. Accommodations can be learned. Sometimes. > [@](#): > > But that last clause is the sticking point:\*\* it has to be important enough to them to make that extra effort. Clearly for some, it is not worth i\*\*t for many of their social engagements. Again, assuming you can know the content of a person’s thoughts is not a valid way to go about living your life. > [@](#): > > And that’s actually fine, if that’s the choice they make. But I believe it is fundamentally a choice, and throwing up one’s hands and saying “I have ADD, therefore I am incapable of being on time” is not going to get a lot of traction with me. They don’t make the ‘choice’ and you’ll only very rarely see people not agonize about it. You’ve seen just that in this thread. \*\*Kalhoun \*\* > [@](#): > > I find the “brain damage” excuse to be a cowardly cop out. Nice. You go argue with the brain scans and the experts, then. :rolleyes: Go tell them they are all wrong and you, Kalhoun, are the only correct person. Here’s [who to contact:](http://www.addwarehouse.com/shopsite_sc/store/html/International_Consensus_Statement_on_ADHD.html) **Contrapuntal** > [@](#): > > I don’t have to be a mind reader. If she can be on time for other people,she can be on time for me. **If she chooses to be late** rather that honor her commitment to me, she is placing a greater value on her time than she is on mine. Q.E.D. See, there’s where you’re doing the mind-reading. You assume she ‘chooses to be llate’. \*\* nashiitashii \*\* > [@](#): > > Is it really that difficult to understand that a person’s lateness is infuriating if it’s both consistent and without remorse? I haven’t been discussing people who don’t even apologize. That’s a whole other issue. \*\* Contrapuntal \*\* > [@](#): > > Let me further elaborate on this. I make no assertion about motivation. I only describe behavior. My condemnation (another strong word), concerns behavior, not motivation. I don’t give a rat’s ass **why she thinks** her time is more important, only that she does. What is motivation if it’s not what a person thinks? You right there just said ‘she thinks her time is more important’. You are saying you know what she thinks. You do not. You are merely assuming. And you know what that does. \*\* Renee\*\* > [@](#): > > Every time you’re late, you’re saying that your time is more important than the person’s you are meeting with. Bottom line. No, that is how you happen to choose to interpret it. I don’t. Other people don’t. People think differently and therefore yours is no more right than anybody else’s. > [@](#): > > Does your conscious brain have absolutely no say in anything? Really, in combination with the quoted statement, you basically just sound like you don’t care about other people’s time. No, it’s more that all those nifty numbers you came up with simply do not compute. What people don’t understand about people with ADD is that they don’t get it. And that sucks because they are considered stupid when it’s not stupidity at all. It’s just some things don’t compute the same way. ADD is not correlated with low IQ. \*\* Stratocaster \*\* > [@](#): > > Not that this is a critical point, but, no, you’re wrong. When you draw an analogy with another similar (at least with regard to a particular premise) but different situation, that does not somehow make it a logical fallacy. It makes it a logical fallacy if what you deem a similar premise is in fact not. > [@](#): > > Reductio ad absurdum by definition is a comparison with another entity or circumstance. You understand what an analogy is, right? You understand what a false analogy is, right? :rolleyes: > [@](#): > > Again, I bring this up because you like to toss around words like “ignorant” and “dishonest” pretty freely, it seems to me. What is the motto of this whole place but ‘fighting ignorance’. People don’t understand/know about deficits in executive function. That is the classic definition of ignorance - lack of knowledge of. > [@](#): > > Then when you’re called on it, you respond with a sentence that’s barely English (“No because people who are late is the group being discussed and is therefore the specific group”) that makes clear you don’t know what you’re talking about. No it meant I was in a rush and didn’t have time to type it all out. I (mistakenly, I guess) thought you would understand. The Converse Fallacy of Argument is to argue from a special case to a general rule. I am talking about the case of people who are late and the circumstance that cause it. You extrapolated from that to an irrelevant group. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by Smitty > This was a locked dorm with constant supervision, so serious were the behavioral issues. Now, if ANY people could be said to “not be able to help themselves” when it comes to their actions, it would be the residents of this dorm. Thanks for the anecdote. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/250 "2007-02-06T08:27:17Z")
\*\*Contrapuntal \*\* > [@](#): > > Is disrespect a character flaw or not? You have chosen to interpret ‘late’ as ‘disrespectful’. That is your interpretation. IT is not in the dictionary. It is not a rule. It is your own particular idea. It is shared by some other people but by no means all other people. And since, so far as I know, nobody has appointed you the arbiter of the definition of disrespect, you do not get to feel that your interpretation is the valid interpretation for all people. > [@](#): > > No one who suffers from ADD related tardiness should ever make such a commitment There are a lot of adults with ADD who don’t know they have it. A few people in this thread have mentioned that they might have it but never thought so before. It’s only in the past ten years that it was realized that ADD persisted into adulthood so people who left school before then weren’t usually diagnosed. All they know is they are late and disorganized and they can’t figure out why. \*\*Contrapuntal \*\* > [@](#): > > You are confusing what she thinks with why she thinks it. “What she thinks” is the behavior No. What she thinks is the content of her thoughts, which are inside her head, where you are not. > [@](#): > > and she **chooses** not to, then \*\*she has assigned a higher \*\*value to the thing she **chooses** to do. You cannot say that she has made this choice. This is assuming you know her thoughts. > [@](#): > > If I note that you choose black shoes over red shoes, am I speaking to your motivation? If you haven’t actually seen me do so, nor heard that I did so, and you only assume it was done, then you are pretending to know my thoughts. > [@](#): > > If I remember that you prefer wine to beer, am I assigning a motivation to you when I serve you Chardonnay? Presumably I have told you that I prefer it. However in the case of this ‘choice’ to be late, you have no such knowledge, do you? It’s an assumption on your part and only that. \*\*Contrapuntal \*\* > [@](#): > > Is disrespect a character flaw or not? You have chosen to interpret ‘late’ as ‘disrespectful’. That is your interpretation. IT is not in the dictionary. It is not a rule. It is your own particular idea. It is shared by some other people but by no means all other people. And since, so far as I know, nobody has appointed you the arbiter of the definition of disrespect, you do not get to feel that your interpretation is the valid interpretation for all people. > [@](#): > > No one who suffers from ADD related tardiness should ever make such a commitment There are a lot of adults with ADD who don’t know they have it. A few people in this thread have mentioned that they might have it but never thought so before. It’s only in the past ten years that it was realized that ADD persisted into adulthood so people who left school before then weren’t usually diagnosed. All they know is they are late and disorganized and they can’t figure out why. \*\*Contrapuntal \*\* > [@](#): > > You are confusing what she thinks with why she thinks it. “What she thinks” is the behavior No. What she thinks is the content of her thoughts, which are inside her head, where you are not. > [@](#): > > and she **chooses** not to, then \*\*she has assigned a higher \*\*value to the thing she **chooses** to do. You cannot say that she has made this choice. This is assuming you know her thoughts. > [@](#): > > If I note that you choose black shoes over red shoes, am I speaking to your motivation? If you haven’t actually seen me do so, nor heard that I did so, and you only assume it was done, then you are pretending to know my thoughts. > [@](#): > > If I remember that you prefer wine to beer, am I assigning a motivation to you when I serve you Chardonnay? Presumably I have told you that I prefer it. However in the case of this ‘choice’ to be late, you have no such knowledge, do you? It’s an assumption on your part and only that. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/251 "2007-02-06T08:42:51Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] > [@Maastricht](#): > > Man, I hate reading this thread. I’m chronically late, and I have made resolutions to change that silly trait time and time again, in vain. It’s hard to read hear how much other people are insulted by my tardiness. That never was the intention, in fact, I hate it when people have waited for me, I wished they’d just go ahead with whatever they were planning to do. They can’t. In addition to waiting for you, they’re worrying about you. Did you get a flat? Did you have an accident? Are you lost? How will he feel if he shows up and we’re not here? I’m glad you’re taking steps to improve your punctuality. It really makes a difference. Good on ya. [/QUOTE] My mother, who by Spanish standards is quite punctual (she arrives to places within 15’ of the official time and calls if she’s going to be more than 15’ late), is right now calling me every two days for… psychological relief. She tells me all the things that everybody has been doing wrong in those two days; I don’t even need to make “hm-mmm” noises. SHE is the person who taught me it’s not polite to call people’s homes after dinner time. Yesterday I called her as I was cooking dinner. “I’m still at your brother’s, I’ll call you when I get home.” 9pm 10pm 11pm 11:10pm, she calls. After half an hour she’s saying “well, call you again in two days” Me: “mk”. She: “are you asleep?” Me: “ah, well, I wake up at five, you know.” She: “? OH! Oh my God!” This is not usual behavior for her (the monologues are, the hours aren’t)… and it sure is a damn pain. _Specially_ since I know that if I’d switched off the computer and cell, she would have freaked out and called the cops on me. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 8:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/252 "2007-02-06T08:46:01Z")
[QUOTE=amarinth] And unless you can read minds, you have no idea what she thinks. What she does (being late) is the behavior. Why she’s doing it (\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_ - I don’t have psychic abilities. I can’t fill in that blank) is the motivation. As soon as you enter into the contents of someone’s thoughts - you’ve hit motivation. Thoguhts are not behaviors. Actions are behaviors. You claim that you know that it’s because “she thinks her time is more important.” You’ve assigned that as the motivation. [/QUOTE] To be fair: What Contrapuntal is saying is that he doesn’t pretend to know why she thinks there is something more important than keeping her appointment with him, but rather, simply notes that she _does in fact_ consistently find something else to be more important than keeping her appointment with him. It follows from the fact that she does not keep her appointment with him (along with an assumption that she was not held up by something beyond her control) that in each individual case, she has put a higher value on something else than on keeping her appointment. Contrapuntal doesn’t know (and presumably doesn’t care) _what motivates her_ to devalue the keeping of her appointment in these cases. He just knows she _does_ devalue it. (Where by “devalue” I mean neither “assign no value” nor “assign less value than is appropriate” but rather "value to a lesser extent than something else.) In other words, Contrapuntal doesn’t know (or I presume care) what it is that she has valued more than keeping the appointment. He just notes that she consistently does value something more than keeping the appointment. I think Contrapuntal is not speaking English correctly (;)) when he says that to ascribe thoughts to people in order to explain their behavior is not to ascribe motivations to them. But I believe the above translates Contrapuntal’s thought into a more standard (if more stilted) form of English. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/253 "2007-02-06T08:48:56Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] > [@Nava](#): > > Quiddity, that trick only works if the “late people” are consistent. No it doesn’t. Because, again (I really wish people would read what I’ve already written), in people with ADD the behaviour is not consistent. People aren’t sure why but it may have to do with fluctuating levels of serotonin. Good for you. You haven’t got a malfunctioning executive function. It is that bit of your brain that enables you to do those things. Congratulations! That’s exactly what people who have to live with people with ADD are told to do. See, you have it figured out. [/QUOTE] **QG** , do you realize that what you said in your “reply” is exactly what I said? I said that “telling someone to meet me half an hour earlier than I actually want them” only works “if that person is always half an hour late”; you said “it doesn’t work for people who are not always half an hour late”. What you said means the same as what I said, yet you’re using it as an argument to rebate itself :smack: Mods forgive me, I swear this is not intended as an insult… but dangit, **QG:** can you read? That’s an actual question! You seem to have serious problems with reading comprehension. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/254 "2007-02-06T09:11:17Z")
[QUOTE=Nava] **QG** , do you realize that what you said in your “reply” is exactly what I said? I said that “telling someone to meet me half an hour earlier than I actually want them” only works “if that person is always half an hour late”; you said “it doesn’t work for people who are not always half an hour late”. What you said means the same as what I said, yet you’re using it as an argument to rebate itself :smack: Mods forgive me, I swear this is not intended as an insult… but dangit, **QG:** can you read? That’s an actual question! You seem to have serious problems with reading comprehension. [/QUOTE] [QUOTE=Nava] Mods forgive me, I swear this is not intended as an insult… but dangit, **QG:** can you read? That’s an actual question! You seem to have serious problems with reading comprehension. [/QUOTE] Yeah, that was insulting. Kindly cite where I ‘seem to have serious problems with reading comprehension’. It was 8 AM, I was supposed to be getting ready for work. I was trying to reply to a bunch of posts and mistakenly conflated your post with the one just before my reply so thought the ‘trick’ you mentioned was the strategy she spoke about. So rather than insulting me, you might have pointed out that my reply didn’t make sense, at which point I’d go check (as I now have) and figured out how that happened. But thanks for illustrating my point about being judgmental. sigh. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 9:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/255 "2007-02-06T09:26:57Z")
Bottom line: it is to you (vous) to choose to interpret someone’s behaviour towards you as an insult or not. But you and your friends and the people around you will fare much better if you refuse to feel insulted until you are positive that someone meant something as an insult. And that means they say to your face that they are insulting you. So long as you insist upon believing that malice has been done to you deliberately, you will only upset yourself, particularly when it is simply not the case. See Albert Ellis on this. Anger is poisonous to the body; it does everyone well to avoid it where possible, and that includes refusing to believe that people are malicious without proof. Everybody knows this saying: \*\*Never ascribe to malice that which can adequately be explained by incompetence \*\* (forgive if it’s not exactly correct; it’s late). And most folks aren’t malicious. Especially people who care about you. ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 9:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/256 "2007-02-06T09:55:05Z")
[QUOTE=Maastricht] I’m never angry if someone is late to me, so it is hard to imagine the anger of the punctual person who has to wait for me. [/QUOTE] If you’re chronically late, it’s hard to imagine that the situation of you having to wait for anyone comes up very often. Perhaps if you had more experience with that situation, you would understand it. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/257 "2007-02-06T09:59:09Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] Yeah, that was insulting. Kindly cite where I ‘seem to have serious problems with reading comprehension’. It was 8 AM, I was supposed to be getting ready for work. I was trying to reply to a bunch of posts and mistakenly conflated your post with the one just before my reply so thought the ‘trick’ you mentioned was the strategy she spoke about. [/QUOTE] I already did point it out, **QG**. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 10:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/258 "2007-02-06T10:04:59Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] \*\*Stratocaster \*\* You have created a symbolism that is not shared by everyone. This is your own construct. It is your interpretation that this behaviour construes disrespect. It is not mine. I’m not sure how you arrive at the conclusion that others are required to live by your particular set of rules and symbols. [/quote] Yes, it is my wacky inference that people who blow off their commitments to me are being disrespectful. Unlike you, I don’t default to an assumption that this common behavior is because the person may have some mental defect. > [@](#): > > And, for the third time at least, people who deal with people with executive function deficits all know that the deficits do not manifest exactly the same way every single day. I don’t know how this couldn’t be willful ignorance on your part at this point, since you’re demonstrating a pattern of completely ignoring a response to some point you’ve made. I already responded to this. I’m not going to bother re-posting it. > [@](#): > > And again, this is a thought process which you ascribe to them. You cannot possibly know this and therefore only believe it because - well because you feel like it, I guess. It is born out by multiple latesters in this very thread! Are you kidding me? Do you think no one is reading the responses from people other than you? ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 10:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/259 "2007-02-06T10:10:13Z")
Funny story: I used to carpool sometimes with a couple of colleages. Guy number 1 was always late to the meeting spot - not a lot, but consistently 5-10 minutes late (which was particularly annoying considering that he only lived 5 minutes away, and therefore was actually leaving his house _after_ the time he was supposed to be _arriving_ at the meeting spot. Guy number 2 and I were grousing about Guy number 1, and I suggested that for the next time, we give him a meeting time 10 minutes earlier than the time we actually intended to meet. So we do this, but Guy number 2 inexplicably chickens out and decides to arrive early, at the “fake” time we gave to Guy number 1. To make matters worse, Guy number 1 strangely decides this will be the one day he’s actually going to arrive on time. So I arrive at the “real” time, and Guy number 1 complains that I am late. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 6, 2007, 10:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/260 "2007-02-06T10:13:51Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster **Stratocaster** Again, it should not be difficult to fathom that not everybody thinks like you. I enjoy figure skating and you may think it’s ridiculous. I hate sushi, which you may adore. Humans are different. Period. This is not a difficult concept.[/quote] Again, I’ll stubbornly maintain my membership in that wacky subset of the population who feels that people who blow off their commitments are being disrespectful, however slight the disrespect. > [@](#): > > \*\* Stratocaster \*\* > > It makes it a logical fallacy if what you deem a similar premise is in fact not. Yes. In this case the premise was identical–i.e., a mental defect that has in some instances a symptom that could affect behavior; that defect ought to be considered a mitigating factor in assessing that behavior. Try to keep up. > [@](#): > > You understand what a false analogy is, right? :rolleyes: One of us does. Keep rolling those eyes, sister. > [@](#): > > No it meant I was in a rush and didn’t have time to type it all out. I (mistakenly, I guess) thought you would understand. > The Converse Fallacy of Argument is to argue from a special case to a general rule. I am talking about the case of people who are late and the circumstance that cause it. You extrapolated from that to an irrelevant group. You can continue to repeat this and it won’t make it so. If we’re discussing potato chips and I draw a comparison to ice cream, my comparison is either based on a valid premise or it is not; it is an illustrative analogy, or it isn’t. It’s not logical, as you seem to think, to respond, “Nonsense! We’re only talking about potato chips here.” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553.md?page=14)