# Is punctuality a choice? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2007, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553 "2007-02-02T16:05:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2007, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/301 "2007-02-08T22:04:59Z")
Honest to god…this thread is infuriating. Just grow the fuck up and be on time. Once in a while is acceptable. Habitual latesters (unless I can see your lobotomy scars :rolleyes: ) are rude slackers. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2007, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/302 "2007-02-08T23:31:14Z")
[QUOTE=Blaster Master] It looks like there’s a significant amount of talking past eachother with regard to the points being made from both sides [/quote] In what way? > [@Blaster Master](#): > > To those making the point “if you’re completely unaware of time, you should be late 50% of the time and early 50% of the time”, it simply doesn’t apply to the situations in my life, or those others here are describing. When I lose track of time, that has a value of time that is never negative; when I forget to account for items, that has a value of time that is not negative. When I do not lose track of time or forget to account for items, I am on time or early; when I lose track of time or forget to account for items, I am often late (though still occassionally on time if the impact isn’t sufficient). So when you remember these items that you forgot, do you sometimes choose not to do them? Even if not doing them will make you early? For instance, in your working out example, you said that you forgot that you had to drink some water at the water fountain. When you remembered this, have you ever not done it? I think most people have experienced a time when they had planned to do something but they ran out of time. At this point, they make the **choice** to continue with their original plan which was obviously unrealistic or be late. My contention is that punctual people would choose to forgo the original plan. I know I have done it many times. > [@Blaster Master](#): > > Further, my entire reason for participating in this thread isn’t to debate whether or not I can help myself when it comes to being late. OK, but generally in a debate, one uses cites to make their points. So far, you’ve only used anecdotal evidence and the only anecdotal evidence you’ve used involves yourself. So the only rebuttal to anecdotal evidence about yourself that people can give is about yourself. > [@Blaster Master](#): > > I do, however, contend that it is not as easy for some as it is for others (whether it is because of ADD, other brain disorders, or whatever other cause it may be) I don’t think that most people (or indeed any people in this thread) have contended that it’s not as easy for some than it is for others. Punctuality is a habit and like all habits requires practice. For those out of practice, it requires more effort. Just as exercising requires more up-front work for those who have never done it or only done it occasionally, habitual punctuality also requires more work for some. And just as exercise is more difficult for those with poor coordination and takes a bit more effort, punctuality requires more diligence for those that have trouble concentrating. Having said that, I haven’t witnessed anything in this thread that convinces me that anyone in this thread has the trouble concentrating problem. Having seen many of your posts, I am quite sure that it doesn’t apply to you. > [@Blaster Master](#): > > AND that it is patently unfair to assume disrespect because of tardiness. There’s been much said about that in this thread. Most people have said that they don’t just assume and that many factors go into this decision. But I’ve been thinking about this after I went to the link that **Maastricht** put up to a book he had ordered. The book is called [“Never Be Late Again: 7 Cures for the Punctually Challenged”](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0971649995/ref=ord_cart_shr/104-0202801-2917517?%5Fencoding=UTF8&v=glance) (Please note that a punctual person did not post this link) Here are some of the comments I got from the reviews of that book: “Most books or articles suggest that being late is “all about power or control”, or “late people do not care about other people”, or contribute chronic tardiness to some passive aggressive personality defect.” And according to the reviewer, it is not about that. Then another person said: (click on all reviews to see this one) “I was using what Delonzor calls “magical thinking” when it came to time.” So I was wondering, what do late people want us to think about them? Evidently, you don’t want us to think you’re being disrespectful. Would you rather us think that you’re using “magical thinking”? OK, I don’t want to put words in your mouth, that was a reviewer’s words. So using your own words, if someone were waiting for you for the third and for most people, the last time, what would you like them to be thinking about why you’re doing that? > [@Blaster Master](#): > > On another point, I have been doing the best I can to pay attention to the amount of time I’ve spent doing specific activities over the last few days and here are some of my results. Monday, I had class and left late (due to unforeseen circumstances, not due to a lack of awareness of time). I left at about 4:05 and was parked and in the classroom by 4:33; mind you, on most other occassions, I have been **late leaving as early as 3:50**. I was absolutely certain I was going to be about 10-15 minutes late because of when I left and cannot figure out what could have possibly gone differently; in fact, I distinctly noticed several times getting stuck behind other vehicles going at or below the speed limit. It’s good that you’re noticing. But this example is not making sense to me. You were “late leaving as early as”? Those words don’t go together in my mind. It sounds something like “I was starting the end beginning as”. Eh? > [@Blaster Master](#): > > Tuesday morning, I went through my normal morning routine and I’m quite sure I left nothing out, it took about 25 minutes before I left the house. This morning, it took 40-45 minutes before I left the house, and I did nothing extra, certainly nothing that I can imagine adding an extra 20 minutes. So far, we’ve learned that you should probably get up at least 1 1/2 hours before you have to get to work. It takes you 45 minutes on the high side to get ready on one day and 45 minutes from bed to the office without getting ready. So unless the 45 minute estimate on the high side still needs revising, the 1 1/2 hours should be fair. That should leave you between 20-40 minutes early to get there. That’s about right for the complexity of the thing. If you were driving across country or trying to make it to any airplane, more time would be required. If you want to know where that additional 20 minutes goes, you would need to time each individual activity. If you have 10 things going on in the morning, it wouldn’t be surprising to have 2 minutes leeway for each of the items. > [@Blaster Master](#): > > Similarly, I had to walk to a place and back; the total time it took was within a minute or two of one hour. It took me about 35 minutes to get to the place, but only about 25 minutes to get back including a quick pit stop. That’s unsurprising. If you keep clocking these things, you’ll probably notice that going to things take longer than to get back from things in many cases. Generally people walk slower to things and are more careful and deliberate when they’re stressed (and it’s stressful to go to anything). You may also have to find the place or be concentrating on what’s going to happen there. When you’re going back, you have none of these things going on. > [@Blaster Master](#): > > These are types of discrepancies with time I’ve been talking about. In each case, two items that should have taken just about the same amount of time have a non-insignificant difference. Actually, those are pretty insignificant amounts of time. A 20 minute difference can be accounted for pretty easily. You’ve wasted 20 minutes before, right? If you have several tasks, each taking 30 seconds longer, that’s hardly noticeable until you add them up. Because of this, people who are generally punctual account for this and add it to the time that they have to add to the task to be on time. So, I have a question for you on a related note. For me, taking tests takes a great deal of time management. If, as you say, you get stuck thinking about something and can’t stop until you remember to get back on track, how do you manage your time in an exam. If you have 4 essay questions, how do you allocate your time so you don’t spend too much time on any one of them? Or if you have computational questions, how do you allocate your time so if you’re stuck on one, you don’t just stop there and remember to move on so the other questions get answered. Perhaps your answer to this will give more insight to the issue. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 8, 2007, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/303 "2007-02-08T23:44:20Z")
As a result of **H&R** ’s comment about “magical thinking,” I did a google search for that term along with the name of the author of the book. Here’s an [interesting link](http://onlineorganizing.com/NewslettersArticle.asp?newsletter=go&article=20) describing some of the content of that book and some of what she says about the psychology of chronic tardiness. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/304 "2007-02-09T01:03:47Z")
I know that everyone has to struggle to get motivated and be consistently punctual, but some of the ‘punctualists’ here need to accept that it’s a _much_ harder struggle for some than for others, and that that’s inevitably going to affect a person’s Won-Loss record. Being late isn’t “selfish,” since it does more harm to the tardy than anyone else. Rather, it’s destructive – just think, that infuriating person you know who’s always late manages to inconvenience you every once in a while, but he inconveniences _himself_ every day of his life. And he knows it, too, which can’t be fun. What he doesn’t know is how to fix the problem. That makes the condition much more pitiable than contemptible. This doesn’t mean that you have to give a tardy person a pass, or that it’s ok for someone to be late all the time – it’s not. What it does mean, however, is that a lot of the people in this thread would do well to drop the attitude. It really seems as if some posters are annoyed at the tardy people in their own lives, and are just taking the opportunity to vent frustration, and to scold the few posters who are willing to admit to being chronically late. Whatever the motivation, it’s really childish. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/305 "2007-02-09T01:18:04Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Honest to god…this thread is infuriating. Just grow the fuck up and be on time. Once in a while is acceptable. Habitual latesters (unless I can see your lobotomy scars :rolleyes: ) are rude slackers. [/QUOTE] Honest to god, this thread is annoying. Live and let live and quit trying to make everybody behave the way you happen to think they ought. ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/306 "2007-02-09T04:22:51Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] As a result of **H&R** ’s comment about “magical thinking,” I did a google search for that term along with the name of the author of the book. Here’s an [interesting link](http://onlineorganizing.com/NewslettersArticle.asp?newsletter=go&article=20) describing some of the content of that book and some of what she says about the psychology of chronic tardiness. -FrL- [/QUOTE] Wait, wait, wait. I want to make it very clear that it’s not MY phrase. I was just quoting a review from **Maastricht** ’s linked book. I don’t know anything about the theory except that it’s quoted in the review of the book. And it’s unsurprising that the same term is used because the author of the book is the same as the creator of the website. I don’t know if the theory has widespread acceptance beyond that. > [@VarlosZ](#): > > Being late isn’t “selfish,” since it does more harm to the tardy than anyone else. Could you give an example where the non-punctual person is more damaged than the punctual person? Let me set the parameters for the example. If no one is affected, that’s not punctuality, that’s procrastination. So if a non-punctual person does something that only affects them, that’s a change in schedule and not what we’re discussing here. So the example I’m looking for is one where the non-punctual person has agreed to meet someone else and the event can’t happen until both show up. It also doesn’t count, for example, if the person were going to meet a few friends for drinks and the people were going to have the event with or without them. I find it hard to think of an example which fits my parameters where the non-punctual person is more damaged than the punctual person. I think the charge of selfish is sometimes applied because the non-punctual person doesn’t take into account the damage that they’re doing to others and that looks self-centered from the point of view of the people that are affected. > [@VarlosZ](#): > > Rather, it’s destructive – just think, that infuriating person you know who’s always late manages to inconvenience you every once in a while, but he inconveniences himself every day of his life. And he knows it, too, which can’t be fun. What he doesn’t know is how to fix the problem. That makes the condition much more pitiable than contemptible. People do self-destructive things all the time. . . smoking, drinking, eating junk food and on and on. We don’t generally pity people who do these things. Are you saying that all that is required is just more information. . . when you say that he doesn’t know how to fix the problem? Could they just get more information and fix the problem? > [@VarlosZ](#): > > This doesn’t mean that you have to give a tardy person a pass, or that it’s ok for someone to be late all the time – it’s not. What it does mean, however, is that a lot of the people in this thread would do well to drop the attitude. It really seems as if some posters are annoyed at the tardy people in their own lives, and are just taking the opportunity to vent frustration, and to scold the few posters who are willing to admit to being chronically late. Whatever the motivation, it’s really childish. Perhaps you’re right about that and perhaps not. I don’t know where all the frustration comes from. But it’s possible that the frustration is not necessarily about people being late. After all, no one here is affected by the late behavior of people in this thread. Perhaps some of the people here are frustrated by the apparent difficulty of getting their point across so that they feel heard. Given that the viewpoints are pretty diametrically opposed, that’s unlikely to change. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 5:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/307 "2007-02-09T05:57:00Z")
[QUOTE=Heffalump and Roo] Wait, wait, wait. I want to make it very clear that it’s not MY phrase. I was just quoting a review from **Maastricht** ’s linked book. I don’t know anything about the theory except that it’s quoted in the review of the book. And it’s unsurprising that the same term is used because the author of the book is the same as the creator of the website. I don’t know if the theory has widespread acceptance beyond that. [/quote] I wasn’t saying it was your phrase. I was just saying your mentioning her use of the phrase led me to do the google search, and I was showing the participants on the thread a relevant link I had found–namely, a link to a page about that book and the concepts in it. There’s not supposed to be anything suprising at the link. I was just providing information that might be relevant to clarifying some of the things that have been said on this thread. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/308 "2007-02-09T06:54:49Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] I wasn’t saying it was your phrase. I was just saying your mentioning her use of the phrase led me to do the google search, and I was showing the participants on the thread a relevant link I had found–namely, a link to a page about that book and the concepts in it. There’s not supposed to be anything suprising at the link. I was just providing information that might be relevant to clarifying some of the things that have been said on this thread. -FrL- [/QUOTE] Okey dokes. Just making sure. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/309 "2007-02-09T08:01:00Z")
I have had several bosses/jobs that were quite strict, or at least concerned, about what time I arrived at work in the morning. I should note that, unlike some people in this thread, I have actually been _fired_ for chronic lateness, and the way I learned to deal with it was to ask at the job interview how important a factor it was in the overall scheme of the position I was applying for. If they said it was really important, that was a dealbreaker. (For me, and probably, since I asked, for them.) Oddly enough, when people say at the job interview that it’s not really significant, they’re often lying. So. One day, at one such job, where I knew my boss would like me to get there earlier, I woke up, misread my alarm clock, and ended up getting to work a whole hour before I usually did, i.e. 7:45. And I was a mess. My legs were weak, my eyes didn’t work, my boss actually had to bring coffee to my desk, and I was good for nothing except to sit there and stare at the _Wall Street Journal_ for an hour. Yet my boss said, over and over, how much he appreciated my being there early. I kept wondering _Why?_ I was useless. I didn’t mind staying late. Somebody often had to stay late; it was always me, not my boss. Nobody ever gives you brownie points for staying late and actually getting work done, but getting there early, and being useless, apparently counts for quite a bit. Another instance, another boss. I told this one quite frankly that it required much greater effort, a much more sizable use of my daily allotment of brain power (such as it was), to get to work at 8 rather than 9. Nine was easy, 8 was a series of challenges that left me exhausted. So where did she want me to put my energy–in getting there at 8, or in the job itself? (And again, note that I was quite willing to stay late. Later than anybody. Both these jobs were newspaper jobs that could, and often did, go on into the night.) She rather grudgingly admitted that _she couldn’t understand_ how it could be so much harder for me to get there an hour earlier, but okay, so 9 it was–but she’d be happy to see me earlier, particularly on deadline days. I’m not a morning person. I’m really, really not. It doesn’t matter when I go to bed or when I get up, I’m just pretty much nonfunctional before 10 a.m. Without a superhuman (for me) effort I will be late to anything starting before that hour, which is to say that I can make an early plane flight, an early meeting, or the appointment to pick up the lottery check if that’s when I have to be there, but to do it routinely ruins my life. In the afternoon, in the evening? Unless I got badly off track earlier, I’m on time. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 8:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/310 "2007-02-09T08:20:35Z")
[QUOTE=Hilarity N. Suze] …Oddly enough, when people say at the job interview that it’s not really significant, they’re often lying. … my boss said, over and over, how much he appreciated my being there early. I kept wondering _Why?_ I was useless. Nobody ever gives you brownie points for staying late and actually getting work done, but getting there early, and being useless, apparently counts for quite a bit. [/QUOTE] We need to switch cultures, in Spain being early is just seen as “weird” but woe art thou if you can’t stay late. I so hate it when people lie in job interviews, whether it be the company or the potential employee - wouldn’t it be much better for both parts if the job descriptions were accurate and the resumes were realistic? Is it one of those Mars/Venus things I just don’t get or something? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 10:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/311 "2007-02-09T10:39:11Z")
[QUOTE=Hilarity N. Suze] So. One day, at one such job, where I knew my boss would like me to get there earlier, I woke up, misread my alarm clock, and ended up getting to work a whole hour before I usually did, i.e. 7:45. And I was a mess. My legs were weak, my eyes didn’t work, my boss actually had to bring coffee to my desk, and I was good for nothing except to sit there and stare at the _Wall Street Journal_ for an hour. Yet my boss said, over and over, how much he appreciated my being there early. I kept wondering _Why?_ I was useless. [/quote] An _hour_ did that to you? Was it the loss of an hour’s sleep? Or was it the rush of getting there? I don’t get it, but maybe I’m misunderstanding. > [@](#): > > Another instance, another boss. I told this one quite frankly that it required much greater effort, a much more sizable use of my daily allotment of brain power (such as it was), to get to work at 8 rather than 9. Nine was easy, 8 was a series of challenges that left me exhausted. This is the part if the post where the latesters and the punctual guys will disconnect. If 9:00 is easy for you, I cannot comprehend why 8:00 wouldn’t be as well. Get to bed an hour earlier, get up an hour earlier. Really. I’m not trying to be confrontational, but I absolutely don’t get this. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/312 "2007-02-09T10:49:32Z")
Hilarity, let me clarify. For some people (I won’t say all!), “I’m not a morning person” can mean any of a number of things, among them, “My routine is to go to bed at midnight, and I’m a wreck without 8 hours, and I’m not inclined to change when I go to bed, so 8:00 start times are not an option.” I’m not saying that’s you, but morning, shmorning, in my mind you (and virtually everyone else) just needs a certain amount of sleep and a certain amount of time to get up, allowing for normal variances. If you can get to work, no problem, by 9:00, I can’t fathom why getting there at 8:00 has to render you mentally and physically such a wreck. It seems like there’s a simple solution. (And I’m not arguing that an 8:00 start time isn’t sometimes arbitrary. I see your point there.) ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 10:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/313 "2007-02-09T10:50:27Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] Honest to god, this thread is annoying. Live and let live and quit trying to make everybody behave the way you happen to think they ought. [/QUOTE] That would be fine if the latesters never agreed to being somewhere at a designated time. But they do. Therefore, I’m in a contract \*with them \* and have every right to expect them to hold up their end of the bargain. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/314 "2007-02-09T11:09:20Z")
You know what? I’m not gonna wade through six pages of this thread, just because I just now noticed it. I’m just gonna say this: If you can’t be on time, fuck you. You’re an ass because you don’t care about what you’re doing to other people. I don’t mind the occasional tardiness because sometimes shit just happens and things go that way and you can’t help being late. But for those of you who are always 10-15-30 minutes late? Fuck you. Fuck your sisters and your mother, too. I don’t care. Fuck you. I spent fourteen and a half years without a driver’s license. I spent that time getting to work on foot, on a bicycle, or on the bus. And you know what? I was **on time** to work every fucking day that I was scheduled to work. I was a breakfast cook. Do you know what it’s like getting up every morning at fucking 4:00 AM, showering, and walking out the door at 4:45 and walking or bicycling two miles to work and showing up fucking on time at 5:30 AM every fucking day? Only to have the fucking night cook show up whenever the hell he feels like staggering in? Guess what? Sometimes I wanted to take the bus home. But the bus showed up 15 minutes after I was supposed to be off work. So when Mr. Night Cook, my relief, shows up 15 minutes late, I miss my fucking bus and have to wait another 30 minutes for the next bus. Mr. Can’t Show Up On Time is wasting 45 minutes of **my time** by showing up 15 minutes late. You know, I don’t mind this every once in a while. Shit happens. But every fucking day? Fuck that shit. Fuck you. You suck. I hate you, you worthless piece of shit. Hung over? I used to be a fucking drunk. I used to drink myself into oblivion every fucking night to kill the pain. But you know what? Even at the peak of my drunken stupors, **I showed the fuck up to work, and I showed the fuck up on time**! You wanna get drunk? Go ahead. Just show the fuck up on time, and don’t make the boss fucking call me on my day off because you can’t show the fuck up. Fucker. (Edit: Wow, I can edit my posts now! But I’m not editing this fucker. I just want to say it again: Fuck you, you late-ass fucker!) ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/315 "2007-02-09T11:11:55Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] An _hour_ did that to you? Was it the loss of an hour’s sleep? Or was it the rush of getting there? I don’t get it, but maybe I’m misunderstanding.This is the part if the post where the latesters and the punctual guys will disconnect. If 9:00 is easy for you, I cannot comprehend why 8:00 wouldn’t be as well. Get to bed an hour earlier, get up an hour earlier. Really. I’m not trying to be confrontational, but I absolutely don’t get this. [/QUOTE] **Stratocaster** , I’m not **Hilarity** but if I’m reading her (his?) posts correctly, her sleep hours are like mine, unmovable objects. I wake up at 5am sun-time, even if I just arrived from 8 timezones away or went to bed at 3am sun-time. After 3pm my ability to work starts going down, by 9pm don’t try to get anything rational unless I can go real, real slow. There’s been times when I had to work the night shift for a week (3 days night, one of “rest”, 3 nights), all I managed to catch is catnaps. I can not sleep by day. I’ve even tried sleeping pills when I was on shift jobs, all they did was screw my stomach. **Hilarity** is sort of the opposite. If she went to bed one hour early she’d just turn around for one hour. Once the clock says “10am” or later, she’s perfectly punctual - it’s trying to do anything more complicated than breathe before that time, that’s a no-go. I had a job where we were supposed to work 9-5. With permission from the boss, I went 8-4 and my coworker 11-7. We were both there 8 hours a day, we knew when the other one would be there, we both were able to avoid rush hour traffic, the work was beign done on time and everybody was happy except HR (to whom the boss gave specific instructions about what they could do with their displeasure). So **Hilarity** ’s problem (again, if I’ve read correctly) is not a punctuality problem at all, it’s a problem of circadian rythms. Some of us just have very concrete ones. As in Portland concrete. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/316 "2007-02-09T11:26:26Z")
[QUOTE=Nava] So **Hilarity** ’s problem (again, if I’ve read correctly) is not a punctuality problem at all, it’s a problem of circadian rythms. Some of us just have very concrete ones. As in Portland concrete. [/QUOTE] Circadian-Schmircadian. If I have my druthers, I go to bed at fucking 4:00AM and wake up around noon. Necessity is the motherfucker of invention. When waking up at 4:00AM is necessary, I invent a way to wake up at that time. And pretty fucking soon, 4:00AM is wakeup time instead of gotosleep time. And you get fucking used to it. And pretty soon you discover that getting off work at 1:00 PM is fucking sweet, because you’ve got hours and hours of daylight left to do whatever the fuck you want to do. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/317 "2007-02-09T11:43:31Z")
[QUOTE=Phase42] You know what? I’m not gonna wade through six pages of this thread, just because I just now noticed it. I’m just gonna say this: If you can’t be on time, fuck you. You’re an ass because you don’t care about what you’re doing to other people. I don’t mind the occasional tardiness because sometimes shit just happens and things go that way and you can’t help being late. But for those of you who are always 10-15-30 minutes late? Fuck you. Fuck your sisters and your mother, too. I don’t care. Fuck you. I spent fourteen and a half years without a driver’s license. I spent that time getting to work on foot, on a bicycle, or on the bus. And you know what? I was **on time** to work every fucking day that I was scheduled to work. I was a breakfast cook. Do you know what it’s like getting up every morning at fucking 4:00 AM, showering, and walking out the door at 4:45 and walking or bicycling two miles to work and showing up fucking on time at 5:30 AM every fucking day? Only to have the fucking night cook show up whenever the hell he feels like staggering in? Guess what? Sometimes I wanted to take the bus home. But the bus showed up 15 minutes after I was supposed to be off work. So when Mr. Night Cook, my relief, shows up 15 minutes late, I miss my fucking bus and have to wait another 30 minutes for the next bus. Mr. Can’t Show Up On Time is wasting 45 minutes of **my time** by showing up 15 minutes late. You know, I don’t mind this every once in a while. Shit happens. But every fucking day? Fuck that shit. Fuck you. You suck. I hate you, you worthless piece of shit. Hung over? I used to be a fucking drunk. I used to drink myself into oblivion every fucking night to kill the pain. But you know what? Even at the peak of my drunken stupors, **I showed the fuck up to work, and I showed the fuck up on time**! You wanna get drunk? Go ahead. Just show the fuck up on time, and don’t make the boss fucking call me on my day off because you can’t show the fuck up. Fucker. (Edit: Wow, I can edit my posts now! But I’m not editing this fucker. I just want to say it again: Fuck you, you late-ass fucker!) [/QUOTE] (That was beautiful!) ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/318 "2007-02-09T13:10:18Z")
[QUOTE=Nava] So **Hilarity** ’s problem (again, if I’ve read correctly) is not a punctuality problem at all, it’s a problem of circadian rythms. [/QUOTE] So from my point of view, I’d say that Hilarity has taken her problem and made it the world’s problem. She needs to find a job, preferably one where she’s self-employed, whose hours accomodate her cicadian rhythms, instead of agreeing to a work schedule that she plainly has no intention of meeting. As has been noted, the problem isn’t really with chronic lateness, it’s with chronic dishonesty. It’s cool if you need to be late all the time, but if you only told people that this lifelong pattern ain’t going away, and you’re okay with them permanently standing around waiting for you with a thumb up their asses, as is the case, then I think they’ll drop you as a friend or fire you or whatever, and that’s the part you’re being dishonest about. You want the benefits of the friendships and the jobs, but don’t want to hold up your end of what everyone else in the freaking world considers your end of the bargain. You know this, too, of course, but it’s much easier to rattle on about your cicidian rhythms and ADD and PMS and FBI and CIA…Be honest, and take the hit that honesty brings, and see if you’ll find that easier or harder than buying an alarm clock and putting up signs and dealing with your fucking problem. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/319 "2007-02-09T13:38:21Z")
**Phase42** and anyone else who wanders in here for no reason other than hurling obscenities and imprecations at other posters: this is not the **BBQ Pit**. If you have nothing to offer but nastiness, go open a **Pit** thread. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/320 "2007-02-09T14:14:28Z")
\*\*Heffalump and Roo \*\* > [@](#): > > First, let me make it clear that I don’t believe what you are saying about people with ADD or about people who are chronically late. I know people that have ADD that are punctual and have no problems holding responsible positions. I also know chronically late people that don’t have ADD that are generally responsible people Neither of these anecdotes disproves what I’ve said. I never said all people with ADD nor did I ever say all people who are late. > [@](#): > > If someone is going to keep doing something until they’re interrupted or until they tire, I’d argue that those people shouldn’t be driving, have children or have jobs that involve machinery or be responsible for people’s lives in any way. The description that you’ve posted makes this subset of people out to be dangerous to themselves and others. If someone will keep driving and not notice where they’re going or ask themselves conscious questions until someone interrupts them or until they tire, that would make them a danger on the road. If someone can’t remember to feed their infant unless someone reminds them, they’re a danger to that infant. And so on. Why must people come up with ludicrous hypotheticals and then pretend they prove a point? They don’t and yours didn’t. > [@](#): > > Now, as I said, I don’t believe the description as you’ve painted it, so I’m not really worried that this applies to anyone. But I don’t think you’re doing anyone any favors by painting ADD sufferers in this light. What light? I’m attempting to get some of you to rachet down the disapprobation just a hair. It appears that people really love to be disapproving and condemnatory, though, because people are fighting tooth and nail to remain so. \*\* Kalhoun \*\* > [@](#): > > And maybe YOU are making a false assumption. The broad brush you apply to people with ADD is inaccurate Did I say ‘all’ anyplace? No. > [@](#): > > According to the CDC, [http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/symptom.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/symptom.htm), the exact opposite is happening. They are not hyper-attentive to a given activity. ADD sufferers are all over the board. The general concensus is that these folks have patterns of scattered attention; not hopelessly honed in on a given activity. Does a list of symptoms describe every aspect of any condition? Hardly. I’ve read hundreds of articles and papers, been to two conferences, and participated on many boards. So which of us might just have an inkling about she’s talking about? Read the links I’ve posted below. **nashiitashii** > [@](#): > > I completely agree, as none of the ADD sufferers I have known throughout my life (and three of them were extremely close friends for a number of years) have had an inability to control their circumstances to anywhere near the point that QG has been describing. The people with ADD who know they have ADD have (some of them, anyway) had time to make accommodations, learn ways to do things, etc. It’s the ones that don’t that don’t realize something might be wrong. And some who do know still struggle mightily. > [@](#): > > Also, as Kalhoun had pointed out, scattered attention is much more common than being so hyperfocused that reality outside of that one tiny focus disappears. Why, QG, must you insist on continuing this argument when you’re misrepresenting the majority of ADD/ADHD sufferers as you are? You’ve spent time with the ‘majority’ of ADD sufferers? Want to learn something from them and about them? Try [this](http://add.about.com/library/weekly/aa051297.htm) for starters. Then there’s [this](http://user.cybrzn.com/~kenyonck/add/hyperfocus_paradox.html) and [here](http://www.adhdnews.com/testforum/test689.htm) and again [here](http://www.additudemag.com/medical.asp?DEPT_NO=507&SUB_NO=11) and if you wish to continue, just search on ADD hyperfocus. \*\* Contrapuntal \*\* > [@](#): > > Here is my post to which you first responded. Read it again. I’ll bold the important part. Then tell me what ADD has to do with it. I have no other way to explain to a person that if he says definitively that someone else ‘values her time more than mine, and is unconcerned’, etc. then that person is assuming he knows what the someone else values or feels. He is wrong unless she has told him specifically that she does. Maybe somebody else can explain it to you better because I’m at a loss to understand how you wouldn’t understand that. > [@](#): > > I would never accuse anyone of such behavior unless I knew that they were in fact capable of making appointments. It bugs me to hear a bunch of bullshit excuses when we both know that they can be on time, they just choose not to when it involves me. I’d only believe this if you provided proof positive that the person is otherwise on time regularly. \*\* Zsofia \*\* > [@](#): > > Do you even bother to read? I said, get an alarm. The point is, there are coping mechanisms. You know you’re always late. You know you make me miss the movie, or make your clients furious, or miss a test. People who are capable of functioning in an adult world are capable of responding to that and doing something about it. You don’t look at the clock? Set an alarm. You forget to set an alarm? Write yourself a big fat note and stick it on your alarm clock. And forget to look at the note 😛 Seriously, Zsofia, you and the rest of the promptites on this thread should spend a day or two reading some ADD boards (although you’ve seen some remarks here) to see what a struggle it is to pay attention when you don’t think to. And must you be snarky? > [@](#): > > I mean, a whole store full of tools to help out has been linked to, I think it was even you who did the linking! If you don’t avail yourself of tools to help you be on time, yeah, I don’t see why you think it’s so outrageous for me to assume that you can’t be bothered. Most of those tools are quite new. As in the last two or three years. So many people don’t even know they are available. You got a friend who’s always late? Send them the links. \*\* Kalhoun \*\* > [@](#): > > …not to mention Ritalin, which most diagnosed ADDers I know have good results from . And again (so sick of repeating myself), given that it’s only been known the past 10 years that ADD is found in adults, there’s lots of adults with it who’ve not been diagnosed. A lot of people (including medical professionals) still think it’s just a kids’ disease. The public perception is changing, but slowly. \*\* lowbrass \*\* > [@](#): > > How can that be? There must be some point when you are engaged in an activity that you have the thought: “I need to go to class”. It will pop up. Eventually. But not on schedule. Read the links I posted above on ‘hyperfocus’. > [@](#): > > Obviously you do have that thought at some point. If you were simply unable to keep track of time, the thought “I need to go to class”, would still occur randomly, sometimes early and sometimes late. And when it occurs early, you think ‘I still have time’ and go back to what you’re doing. \*\*Stratocaster \*\* > [@](#): > > Hilarity, let me clarify. For some people (I won’t say all!), “I’m not a morning person” can mean any of a number of things, among them, “My routine is to go to bed at midnight, and I’m a wreck without 8 hours, and I’m not inclined to change when I go to bed, so 8:00 start times are not an option.” Do a search for Advanced Sleep Phase Syndrome, Delayed Sleep Phase Syndrome, and read this [http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?type=article&article\_id=218392638](http://www.sciencentral.com/articles/view.php3?type=article&article_id=218392638) People simply refuse to believe that they are as subject to chemistry and biology as they are. Not every function (or dysfunction) in life is a matter of will. In fact, the more science advances, the more we keep finding out that we are truly creatures of the earth rather than above it. You can deny biology all you like but it’s craziness because it’s real. \*\* pseudotriton ruber ruber \*\* > [@](#): > > As has been noted, the problem isn’t really with chronic lateness, it’s with chronic dishonesty. It’s not dishonesty. They’re not saying they’ll be there on time meanwhile thinking ‘mwahaha, I’ll be late but I’m not going to tell him that’. They fully intend to be on time. They believe they will be on time. They try to be on time. And they miss the mark. How many people you know promise to quit smoking, lose weight, start exercising. Every time they make the promise, they intend to do so. Somewhere along the line, ‘willpower’ fails. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553.md?page=17)