# Is punctuality a choice? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2007, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553 "2007-02-02T16:05:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/341 "2007-02-09T15:44:38Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] [One more link](http://www.helpguide.org/mental/adhd_add_adult_symptoms.htm) , for those interested in learning. [/QUOTE] Thanks for the link that bolsters my side of the debate. If you’re chronically late, you can fix it. _Even if you’re one of the tiny minority who is brain-damaged_. Unless you’re living under a rock, you’re aware of ADD and it’s symptoms (which are most often identified by _scattered_ attention; not hyper-attention). If you _choose_ not to see a doctor, if you _choose_ not to adopt strategies that help you maintain a schedule, then you are being wilfully rude. Those who are chronically late are most likely rude and not brain-damaged. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/342 "2007-02-09T15:45:22Z")
> [@QG](#): > > You can’t ‘try harder’ if your brain doesn’t work. Why is this so difficult to comprehend? Oye. More of the brain damage excuse. Why is it so hard to comprehend that the very small group of ADD sufferers that may have a problem with being on time does not even begin to excuse or explain the amount of people that are chronically late? > [@QG](#): > > It is an explanation. An explanation is “I had a flat tire” an excuse is “I ran out of gas”. The second is avoidable with a little bit of forethought. > [@QG](#): > > It did happen to me. And I wasn’t furious. I was worried. GAAAAAA! Do you like to worry? I spoke to this earlier. I don’t like to worry either. When someone is late, I worry about them. When they show up with a hand wave that they “lost track of time”, I may be a little steamed that they didn’t have any consideration for me. Why is **that** so hard to comprehend? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/343 "2007-02-09T15:47:52Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] Irrelevant. You now know that there’s a possible explanation for their behaviour. Now you can take that to them and ask whether they have this kind of problem chronically and if they’d like help. Now you have links to show them what might be wrong and what can help. I’m informing you for that reason. I want you to take this information into consideration before you heap scorn on your friends and seek to help rather than to disapprove and condemn. Is that too much to ask? [/QUOTE] It’s possible that monkeys might fly out of my butt, too…but I’m pretty sure people aren’t assuming that’s the case when I show up late for a movie. ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/344 "2007-02-09T16:02:42Z")
> [@Heffalump](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Being late isn’t “selfish,” since it does more harm to the tardy than anyone else. > > Could you give an example where the non-punctual person is more damaged than the punctual person? If you think about it you’ll see that the Non-Punctual Person **(NPP)** is damaged more as a rule, not an exception. If the NPP is 20 minutes late to a movie theater and his friends have to stand around and then miss the movie, the NPP _also_ has to miss the movie. On top of which, he has to be upset with himself over inconveniencing his friends, then apologize, then spend the evening with people who are annoyed with him. If it happens a lot, then his friends will just think less of him in general. These are all much worse consequences than having to stand on the sidewalk for 20 minutes. The same exact problems occur for someone who is chronicaly late to work, but that’s even worse for the NPP because aside from losing the respect of his peers, he may also lose his job, and he’ll certainly hurt his career in general. (And then the NPP arrives home at night after getting scolded at work and glared at by his friends, logs on to a message board, and is excoriated by relative strangers for being honest about his problem, though he’s done them no harm. Seriously, who do you think is enjoying this thread more: the NPPs who have to address the charges of selfishness and lying, or the punctualists who are leveling the charges?) > [@](#): > > I think the charge of selfish is sometimes applied because the non-punctual person doesn’t take into account the damage that they’re doing to others. . . What makes you think the NPPs don’t take into account the effect of their lateness on other people? Surely that’s sometimes the case, but usually they’re quite aware that _everyone_ invovled is hurt by their lateness. They get reminded of that fact by the other people almost every time. > [@](#): > > . . . and that looks self-centered from the point of view of the people that are affected I agree with that, but my argument is that they’re incorrect to see it as self-centered. For that to be the case, tardiness would have to be to the benefit of the NPP, or at least non-detrimental. When you’re running late, is it ever fun? Afterwards, do you ever think, " Damn, I wish I hadn’t inconvenienced my friends, but being late sure worked out swimmingly for me." Being late doesn’t really do anything for the NPP, and what little good it may sometimes bestow is far outweighed by the consistent, negative consequences. > [@](#): > > People do self-destructive things all the time. . . smoking, drinking, eating junk food and on and on. > > We don’t generally pity people who do these things. You don’t have pity for the smoker with emphysema, the alcoholic who losed his job, or the chronically obese guy? NPPs don’t have problems that are quite so severe, of course, but it’s a matter of degree. In all cases, yes, it’s within the person’s power to fix the problem, but it’s difficult – a lot of people fail, and a lot of people suffer because of it. > [@](#): > > Are you saying that all that is required is just more information. . . when you say that he doesn’t know how to fix the problem? Could they just get more information and fix the problem? I’m saying they don’t “know” how to fix the problem in the same what that I don’t “know” how to be a really good golfer. More and better information would help, but practice and a dozen other factors are also required. (Not a perfect analogy, but clear enough I hope.) > [@](#): > > I don’t know where all the frustration comes from. But it’s possible that the frustration is not necessarily about people being late. After all, no one here is affected by the late behavior of people in this thread. Perhaps some of the people here are frustrated by the apparent difficulty of getting their point across so that they feel heard. Given that the viewpoints are pretty diametrically opposed, that’s unlikely to change. You’re right, I think that must be a factor; you see flare-ups and accusations in all sorts of debate threads, so to an extent it’s natural. It just seemed much worse here than elsewhere, like people are taking it really personal really quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/345 "2007-02-09T16:12:54Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] Irrelevant. [/QUOTE] As Strother Martin informed Paul Newman … Obviously our brains work quite differently such that further attempts at communication between us are of questionable use. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/346 "2007-02-09T16:17:26Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] Thanks for the link that bolsters my side of the debate. If you’re chronically late, you can fix it. _Even if you’re one of the tiny minority who is brain-damaged_. [/quote] 4% is not ‘tiny’. There’s 100 people in your office. 4 could have it. > [@](#): > > Unless you’re living under a rock, you’re aware of ADD and it’s symptoms SO untrue. Clearly you have not worked in advocacy at all. > [@](#): > > (which are most often identified by _scattered_ attention; not hyper-attention) And you obviously didn’t read the other five or six links dealing with hyperfocus, nor the section of that link that did. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/347 "2007-02-09T16:19:15Z")
[QUOTE=enipla] Oye. More of the brain damage excuse. [/quote] Explanation. > [@](#): > > Why is it so hard to comprehend that the very small group of ADD sufferers that may have a problem with being on time does not even begin to excuse or explain the amount of people that are chronically late? How many people are chronically late and do not have it? Cites, please. > [@](#): > > When they show up with a hand wave that they “lost track of time”, I may be a little steamed that they didn’t have any consideration for me. That’s your interpretation. Mine is that they’re a bit flaky and not harmful. Why is that so hard to comprehend? ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/348 "2007-02-09T16:21:28Z")
[QUOTE=Dinsdale] As Strother Martin informed Paul Newman … Obviously our brains work quite differently such that further attempts at communication between us are of questionable use. [/QUOTE] Actually, there’s a thread about ‘visualizing’ time which might provide insight into the reasons for such dichotomous perceptions about this. Seems to some people, time is as concrete a concept as a brick wall. Boggles my mind, frankly. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/349 "2007-02-09T16:28:02Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] 4% is not ‘tiny’. There’s 100 people in your office. 4 could have it. [/quote] And of those four, one _might_ have the inability to tell time. Or give a shit about learning. > [@](#): > > SO untrue. Clearly you have not worked in advocacy at all. Another professional opinion, huh? Oh…that’s right…no ADD coverage on TV, radio, or in the press. Without those door-to-door ADD Excuse Salesmen, we’d be completely unaware of the problem. > [@](#): > > And you obviously didn’t read the other five or six links dealing with hyperfocus, nor the section of that link that did. The problem is overwhelmingly identified as scattered attention issues. [http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/symptom.htm](http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/adhd/symptom.htm) [http://www.oneaddplace.com/attention-deficit-disorder-symptoms.php](http://www.oneaddplace.com/attention-deficit-disorder-symptoms.php) [http://healthyplace.com/communities/add/nimh/symptoms.htm](http://healthyplace.com/communities/add/nimh/symptoms.htm) [http://www.bobseay.com/littlecorner/newurl/quick.html](http://www.bobseay.com/littlecorner/newurl/quick.html) [http://www.webmd.com/content/article/63/72143](http://www.webmd.com/content/article/63/72143) ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/350 "2007-02-09T16:35:18Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] Explanation. How many people are chronically late and do not have it? Cites, please. That’s your interpretation. Mine is that they’re a bit flaky and not harmful. Why is that so hard to comprehend? [/QUOTE] These same people have stated that if it is important to THEM they can be on time. Making others wait for them, wasting others time therefore is not important. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/351 "2007-02-09T16:45:54Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] So from my point of view, I’d say that Hilarity has taken her problem and made it the world’s problem. She needs to find a job, preferably one where she’s self-employed, whose hours accomodate her cicadian rhythms, instead of agreeing to a work schedule that she plainly has no intention of meeting. [/quote] Did you _read Hilarity’s post_? I mean, you don’t have to believe it, but did you even _read_ it? You know, the post the very point of which is to talk about the very point you’ve brought up here? That one? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/352 "2007-02-09T16:48:20Z")
Actually, no. I’ll go back and do so now. I thought it was summarized in a later post, but I don’t remember actually reading \*\*Hilarity’\*\*s, now that you mention it. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/353 "2007-02-09T16:50:24Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] But you don’t --you say, “7:35? Sure thing!” knowing full well that if you’re on time, it will be the first time in three years. That’s being dishonest. [/QUOTE] Dishonest? No. Irrational, yes. People don’t know themselves as well as others can know them. If we want to insist there’s dishonesty here, then we should probably say the latester is being dishonest with herself. But I’ve never understood how it is possible to “lie to yourself.” My own opinion is that there is a kind of mind-blindness going on here, which renders judgments like “I’ll be there on time” for this kind of person _irrational_ (which is no huge condemnation–we’re all irrational) but not necessarily _dishonest_. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/354 "2007-02-09T16:51:02Z")
This thread is making my head hurt. **QG,** I disagree with you on a lot of points in this thread - possibly all of them - but I’m going to focus on a few specific ones. First, this: [QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] How many people are chronically late and do not have it? Cites, please. [/QUOTE] Cites? That people are chronically late? Exactly what sort of cite did you have in mind for that? Would you really contend that less than 1% of the general population could be characterized as chronically late? If so, then your experiences with people are dramatically different from my own. > [@](#): > > That’s your interpretation. Mine is that they’re a bit flaky and not harmful. > Why is that so hard to comprehend? It’s not. It’s nice that you don’t consider it harmful. But, I mean, to some extent, the degree to which a particular act harms someone is defined by the person at whom (for lack of a better phrase) the act is aimed. An example: I have a pair of friends, one male, one female. The male, for reasons lost to antiquity, when he is angry, calls the female a “fat slut.” This does not bother her at all (her usual response is “your mother.” They’re very mature). Does the fact that female friend doesn’t mind being called a fat slut automatically mean that everyone shouldn’t? If male friend calls a new acquaintance a fat slut on their first meeting, should the new acquaintance not mind because female friend doesn’t? If not, then why should I automatically agree that I am not harmed by habitual latecomers just because you say you don’t think they’re harmful? I work a lot in community theatre. Our rehearsals generally begin at 7:00PM, and we are evicted from the building at 10:00PM sharp. There is no negotiating on this point. This is unpaid - an activity that everyone participates in to have fun and produce a show of which we can all be proud. In every production, there are three or four actors (usually out of 15-20) who are habitually late. I mean, late to every rehearsal, by 15 to 45 minutes. Sometimes we cannot start without them. We’re not permitted to rehearse later than 10. So: (1) a group of grown-ass people, with jobs and families, sit around literally doing nothing instead of chores, dinner with spouses, or what have you, waiting for the late people; and (2) we don’t get a sufficient amount of rehearsal in to make an optimal show. Sometimes: (3) we have to add additional rehearsals, giving up more things that WE enjoy, to get enough work in. Are you genuinely contending that those three or four latecomers are not harming me, and the other actors who are in the show, at all? Now, this would not be a problem if we knew about it in advance. We could either plan rehearsals so that we work on material the late actors are not in from 7-7:30, or simply choose not to invite the late actors to be in the show at all. But that leads me to my final contention: Dishonesty. There is no definition of dishonesty, however tortured, under which telling people you will be there at 7 when you know that you most likely will not, does not apply. It’s not _actively lying_, I guess, but it is withholding information that will allow the person who is trying to plan a life around you to plan more efficiently. _Why is this a bad thing?_ Since we’re talking about harm, what possible harm is it to you, as (for example) an actor, to just say, “hey, look, I sometimes have a little trouble with time; I’m going to try to be here at 7:00 every night, but honestly, I may not be able to get here at 7 on the dot every night?” We can debate on whether being punctual is a choice all day long, but being honest about whether or not you are punctual is _definitely_ a choice. If I have a brain disease - a rare seizure disorder - that causes my right arm to abruptly punch to my right, utterly beyond my control unless I am concentrating very hard, and I accidentally punch you, well, you’ll probably be understanding. If you explicitly ask me if it’s OK to sit to my right because you don’t want to get punched, and ask if I’m likely to punch, and I say, “Yes, it’s fine, I won’t punch you,” and then I do anyway, then I’m kind of a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/355 "2007-02-09T16:51:30Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] Actually, no. I’ll go back and do so now. I thought it was summarized in a later post, but I don’t remember actually reading \*\*Hilarity’\*\*s, now that you mention it. [/QUOTE] Okay then. 😛 -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/356 "2007-02-09T16:53:01Z")
[QUOTE=Hilarity N. Suze] I have had several bosses/jobs that were quite strict, or at least concerned, about what time I arrived at work in the morning. I should note that, unlike some people in this thread, I have actually been _fired_ for chronic lateness, and the way I learned to deal with it was to ask at the job interview how important a factor it was in the overall scheme of the position I was applying for. If they said it was really important, that was a dealbreaker. (For me, and probably, since I asked, for them.) Oddly enough, when people say at the job interview that it’s not really significant, they’re often lying. So. One day, at one such job, where I knew my boss would like me to get there earlier, I woke up, misread my alarm clock, and ended up getting to work a whole hour before I usually did, i.e. 7:45. And I was a mess. My legs were weak, my eyes didn’t work, my boss actually had to bring coffee to my desk, and I was good for nothing except to sit there and stare at the _Wall Street Journal_ for an hour. Yet my boss said, over and over, how much he appreciated my being there early. I kept wondering _Why?_ I was useless. I didn’t mind staying late. Somebody often had to stay late; it was always me, not my boss. Nobody ever gives you brownie points for staying late and actually getting work done, but getting there early, and being useless, apparently counts for quite a bit. Another instance, another boss. I told this one quite frankly that it required much greater effort, a much more sizable use of my daily allotment of brain power (such as it was), to get to work at 8 rather than 9. Nine was easy, 8 was a series of challenges that left me exhausted. So where did she want me to put my energy–in getting there at 8, or in the job itself? (And again, note that I was quite willing to stay late. Later than anybody. Both these jobs were newspaper jobs that could, and often did, go on into the night.) She rather grudgingly admitted that _she couldn’t understand_ how it could be so much harder for me to get there an hour earlier, but okay, so 9 it was–but she’d be happy to see me earlier, particularly on deadline days. I’m not a morning person. I’m really, really not. It doesn’t matter when I go to bed or when I get up, I’m just pretty much nonfunctional before 10 a.m. Without a superhuman (for me) effort I will be late to anything starting before that hour, which is to say that I can make an early plane flight, an early meeting, or the appointment to pick up the lottery check if that’s when I have to be there, but to do it routinely ruins my life. In the afternoon, in the evening? Unless I got badly off track earlier, I’m on time. [/QUOTE] Okay, if this is the post you’re talking about, I did read it. What part of my statement that she needs to be self-employed does it contradict? Failing that, to do her job so superbly, and to explain her own bodily needs so eloquently, that the boss would value her performance despite her chronic inability to work at the times he prefers her to. Instead, we get “My boss is so unfaaaaaaaair!” ---
**Author:** ![storyteller0910](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecae2f/32.png) [@storyteller0910](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/storyteller0910)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/357 "2007-02-09T16:55:55Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Dishonest? No. Irrational, yes. People don’t know themselves as well as others can know them. If we want to insist there’s dishonesty here, then we should probably say the latester is being dishonest with herself. But I’ve never understood how it is possible to “lie to yourself.” My own opinion is that there is a kind of mind-blindness going on here, which renders judgments like “I’ll be there on time” for this kind of person _irrational_ (which is no huge condemnation–we’re all irrational) but not necessarily _dishonest_. -FrL- [/QUOTE] Really? So in addition to having whatever brain dysfunction we’re postulating makes someone incapable of managing time effectively, they are also incapable of observing a simple series of facts - “I usually arrive at 7:25 for a 7:00 event” - and extrapolating a fairly obvious conclusion: “There is at least a chance that I will not arrive at 7:00 to any given event scheduled to start at that time?” And we’re imagining that our world is full of people with these twin dysfunctions, so many as to constitute a significant portion of the population, and yet our society functions? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/358 "2007-02-09T16:56:03Z")
[QUOTE=storyteller0910] I work a lot in community theatre. Our rehearsals generally begin at 7:00PM, and we are evicted from the building at 10:00PM sharp. There is no negotiating on this point. This is unpaid - an activity that everyone participates in to have fun and produce a show of which we can all be proud. In every production, there are three or four actors (usually out of 15-20) who are habitually late. I mean, late to every rehearsal, by 15 to 45 minutes. Sometimes we cannot start without them. We’re not permitted to rehearse later than 10. So: (1) a group of grown-ass people, with jobs and families, sit around literally doing nothing instead of chores, dinner with spouses, or what have you, waiting for the late people; and (2) we don’t get a sufficient amount of rehearsal in to make an optimal show. Sometimes: (3) we have to add additional rehearsals, giving up more things that WE enjoy, to get enough work in. Are you genuinely contending that those three or four latecomers are not harming me, and the other actors who are in the show, at all? Now, this would not be a problem if we knew about it in advance. We could either plan rehearsals so that we work on material the late actors are not in from 7-7:30, or simply choose not to invite the late actors to be in the show at all. But that leads me to my final contention: Dishonesty (…) [/QUOTE] I take the main point fom **QG** to be: You don’t have to meet with latesters, you don’t have to be friends with latesters, you don’t have to make appointments with them, you don’t have to associate with them at all. Feel free never to speak to them if that’s your wish. But in the absence of further information, you have no reason to be angry with them, and you certainly have no grounds for a moral judgment of them. As for the dishonesty issue, see my previous post on this page. You presume they “know full well” they won’t be there on time. I agree with you they _should_ know they won’t be on time, but it doesn’t follow that they _do_ know they’ll be on time. Of course you may know more about these people than what you’ve said in this brief post. But if all you know is “They are usually late for their appointments” you just don’t know enough to justify any emotion towards them or any moral judgment of them. -FrL- -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/359 "2007-02-09T17:01:31Z")
[QUOTE=storyteller0910] Really? So in addition to having whatever brain dysfunction we’re postulating makes someone incapable of managing time effectively, they are also incapable of observing a simple series of facts - “I usually arrive at 7:25 for a 7:00 event” - and extrapolating a fairly obvious conclusion: “There is at least a chance that I will not arrive at 7:00 to any given event scheduled to start at that time?” And we’re imagining that our world is full of people with these twin dysfunctions, so many as to constitute a significant portion of the population, and yet our society functions? [/QUOTE] Yeah, people can be pretty blind about themselves. Think of the person for whom every human interaction turns into a fight, but who believes this is always the other person’s fault. Many of us know such a person. And we know about this person that there is a _very simple and easy inference_ that person should draw, but which s/he honestly has not drawn. Very irrational, and some would say “dishonest with themselves,” but I would not say they are necessarily being dishonest with others when they say “It was the other person’s fault.” They’re reporting what they genuninely believe. Here’s a more mundane example. Yesterday I told my wife about a time when I was a kid when I stole some onions off my neighbor’s tree. My wife looked at me funny. I said “what?” She asked me whether I really think that oninons grow on trees. :smack: Of course I don’t. But back then I for some reason had a notion that onions _do_ grow on trees, and what was on my neighbors tree were onions.\* I reported the story _yesterday_ believing they were onions–even though I _know full well_ onions don’t grow on trees. People can fail to draw some very simple inferences which they should draw, and that with suprising facility. 🙂 -FrL- \*The neighbor’s kids had told me they were onions. Thats why I thought they were onions, even though looking back they hardly even looked like onions! -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/360 "2007-02-09T17:01:38Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] \*\* Contrapuntal \*\* I have no other way to explain to a person that if he says definitively that someone else ‘values her time more than mine, and is unconcerned’, etc. then that person is assuming he knows what the someone else values or feels. He is wrong unless she has told him specifically that she does. Maybe somebody else can explain it to you better because I’m at a loss to understand how you wouldn’t understand that. [/QUOTE] She is on time for other events. She is not on time for me. How much more simple can it be? > [@](#): > > I’d only believe this if you provided proof positive that the person is otherwise on time regularly. She still has a job. She makes all her plane flights (meaning she is _early_). She makes dentist and doctor and vet appointments on time. If she needs something from Home Depot, she always gets there before they close, even if it means standing me up. She has a side business as a court reporter, and always gets her documents delivered on time. What else do you want? Do you think I have been lying to you? Is it incredible to you that some people are just lazy, thoughtless and undisciplined unless it hits them in the pocketbook, or otherwise has immediate tangible negative repercussions? This special pleading you are making for ADD is simply unsupported by the facts or by general experience. Anyone who is as dysfunctional as you describe would be unable to dress themselves. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553.md?page=19)