# Is punctuality a choice? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2007, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553 "2007-02-02T16:05:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 19
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/361 "2007-02-09T17:17:27Z")
I’ll ask again. To those people that are habitually late. Is it ok to make people worry about you when you are late? > [@QG](#): > > That’s your interpretation. Mine is that they’re a bit flaky and not harmful. How in the world can you not see this as harmful? If someone says they will be at my house at 9am, I will likely plan my day around that. If they do not show up untill 11am that is going to throw my day off entirely. WTF? Maybe not harmful to the person that is late, but it can sure screw up my day. You, **QG** are just reinforcing that those that are always late do not care how it affects others. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/362 "2007-02-09T17:31:11Z")
The Selfishly Tardy don’t care that their lateness will cost you money. They don’t care that you have carefully planned your schedule to accommodate an appointment. It’s not about _you_, silly! It’s about\* them!!\* They don’t care that the evidence points toward them being _inconsiderate_; not brain-damaged, 99 times out of 100. They just care that they spent _your_ time the way _they_ wanted to. They don’t care because habitual tardiness means _everything starts when THEY want it to start,_ and that’s all that matters. They don’t care that statistics point overwhelmingly against them in these matters. It only matters that they can continue to inconvenience the rest of the world. And if that means shutting out all reasonable arguments against their stance, then by god that’s what they’ll do. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/363 "2007-02-09T17:42:16Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] I take the main point fom **QG** to be: You don’t have to meet with latesters, you don’t have to be friends with latesters, you don’t have to make appointments with them, you don’t have to associate with them at all. Feel free never to speak to them if that’s your wish. But in the absence of further information, you have no reason to be angry with them, and you certainly have no grounds for a moral judgment of them. [/QUOTE] This would actually be a compromise I could live with, if only “latesters” would self-identify as such. _ **Me:** _ So, you want to meet for dinner tonight? _ **Latester:** _ Sure.. but I need to warn you: I can’t promise that I’ll be there on time. In fact, I have no idea when I will show up, except to say that it’s extremely unlikely I will be early. And that goes for any meeting we may plan in the future, also. _ **Me:** _ Ah, okay. Nevermind then. Sadly, it never seems to happen that way. One has to be inconvenienced by the latester a few times before their “damaged executive brain function” is revealed in all its glory. And the “you have no right to be angry” thing was, is, and shall continue to be a boatload of horsey sauce. [Phineas Gage](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phineas_Gage) I would probably excuse if he showed up late to an appointment or two. As for the rest—well, most of the time a flake is just a flake. It’d be interesting if someone founded a commune just for People Who Don’t Live Up to Their Commitments and their (conference-educated!) sympathizers like **QG**. In a year the place would look like Jonestown after everyone died of starvation and exposure. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/364 "2007-02-09T17:42:39Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] Seems to some people, time is as concrete a concept as a brick wall. Boggles my mind, frankly. [/QUOTE] To channel another fine film: _Are we to believe that cesium-133 atoms transition faster (or slower) where you are than any place on the face of the earth? Perhaps the laws of physics cease to exist for you. Were these magic cesium-133 atoms? Did you buy them from the same guy who sold Jack his beanstalk beans?_ 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/365 "2007-02-09T17:45:02Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] It’d be interesting if someone founded a commune just for People Who Don’t Live Up to Their Commitments and their (conference-educated!) sympathizers like **QG**. In a year the place would look like Jonestown after everyone died of starvation and exposure. [/QUOTE] Can you imagine the underwear situation in a land where no one knows how long they’ve had their knickers on? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/366 "2007-02-09T17:49:01Z")
[QUOTE=Vinyl Turnip] And the “you have no right to be angry” thing was, is, and shall continue to be a boatload of horsey sauce. [/QUOTE] So what I said was this. If all you know about a person is that they usually are late for their appointments, including appointments made with you, then, absent further information, you have no reason to be angry with them. You really disagree with this? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/367 "2007-02-09T17:54:59Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] So what I said was this. If all you know about a person is that they usually are late for their appointments, including appointments made with you, then, absent further information, you have no reason to be angry with them. You really disagree with this? -FrL- [/QUOTE] I’d have to disagree. It doesn’t matter what the reason behind their habitual tardiness is. The fact that they continue to make appointments they can’t keep is reason enough to be angry. Particularly if, as stated, I know nothing else about them, meaning they haven’t even tried to offer an excuse (however lame it may be). ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/368 "2007-02-09T17:58:01Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] So what I said was this. If all you know about a person is that they usually are late for their appointments, including appointments made with you, then, absent further information, you have no reason to be angry with them. You really disagree with this? [/QUOTE] I would agree, but with one small amendment. “If all I know about a person is that they usually are late for their appointments, including appointments made with me, then, absent further information, I have every reason to be angry with them.” It seems clear we are on opposite poles. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/369 "2007-02-09T18:11:34Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] **Phase42** and anyone else who wanders in here for no reason other than hurling obscenities and imprecations at other posters: this is not the **BBQ Pit**. If you have nothing to offer but nastiness, go open a **Pit** thread. [/Moderating] [/QUOTE] I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![AHoosierMama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@AHoosierMama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHoosierMama)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/370 "2007-02-09T18:23:48Z")
[QUOTE=Phase42] I apologize. [/QUOTE] I quite enjoyed your post actually. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![VarlosZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/d78d45/32.png) [@VarlosZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VarlosZ)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/371 "2007-02-09T18:36:10Z")
[QUOTE=Kalhoun] The Selfishly Tardy don’t care that their lateness will cost you money. They don’t care that you have carefully planned your schedule to accommodate an appointment. It’s not about _you_, silly! It’s about\* them!!\* They don’t care that the evidence points toward them being _inconsiderate_; not brain-damaged, 99 times out of 100. They just care that they spent _your_ time the way _they_ wanted to. They don’t care because habitual tardiness means _everything starts when THEY want it to start,_ and that’s all that matters. [/QUOTE] In your opinion, what percentage of the habitually tardy are also “Selfishly Tardy,” as you have defined the phrase? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/372 "2007-02-09T18:50:24Z")
Y’know, there does not seem to be anything much resembling a debate, here. It is mostly people making nasty comments about other people, (with all you more experienced posters luring poor **Phase42** into forgetting himself (apology accepted). I’m going to consider, briefly, but I suspect that I am about to shut down this mess, especially if I see more of this “you’re bad”/“you’re mean” stuff that appears to be rooted more in personal feelings than any relevant factual information. [/Moderating] ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/373 "2007-02-09T19:15:30Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] [interesting link](http://onlineorganizing.com/NewslettersArticle.asp?newsletter=go&article=20) [/QUOTE] Before this thread gets shut down, I want to re-post the link quoted above. I don’t know what the author’s credentials are (if any) but I can anecdotally vouch for the fact that the characteristics she ascribes to the “chronically tardy” match, practically to a tee, the personalities of the two chronically tardy type people I have known in my lifetime. Sort of thrill-seeking, finding a (to me somewhat strange) sense of personal satisfaction in cramming their schedules, feeling strong displeasure at the prospect of sitting with nothing they have to do, having particularly inaccurate ideas about how much time is passing and how long things take to do, and so on. I suspect the information at the link, or in the book it alludes to, could be really enlightening on the topic. And it really seems to lend support to the position that we shouldn’t automatically categorize a person’s problems with punctuality as a deficiency in that person’s character, or as showing a lack of respect of some kind. -Kris ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/374 "2007-02-09T19:15:06Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] [interesting link](http://onlineorganizing.com/NewslettersArticle.asp?newsletter=go&article=20) [/QUOTE] Before this thread gets shut down, I want to re-post the link quoted above. I don’t know what the author’s credentials are (if any) but I can anecdotally vouch for the fact that the characteristics she ascribes to the “chronically tardy” match, practically to a tee, the personalities of the two chronically tardy type people I have known in my lifetime. Sort of thrill-seeking, finding a (to me somewhat strange) sense of personal satisfaction in cramming their schedules, feeling strong displeasure at the prospect of sitting with nothing they have to do, having particularly inaccurate ideas about how much time is passing and how long things take to do, and so on. I suspect the information at the link, or in the book it alludes to, could be really enlightening on the topic. And it really seems to lend support to the position that we shouldn’t automatically categorize a person’s problems with punctuality as a deficiency in that person’s character, or as showing a lack of respect of some kind. -Kris ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/375 "2007-02-09T19:17:57Z")
[QUOTE=VarlosZ] In your opinion, what percentage of the habitually tardy are also “Selfishly Tardy,” as you have defined the phrase? [/QUOTE] I’d venture all of the non-brain-damaged latesters are selfishly tardy. Those with brain damage? Prolly 1% or less. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/376 "2007-02-09T19:18:21Z")
[QUOTE=tomndebb] Y’know, there does not seem to be anything much resembling a debate, here. It is mostly people making nasty comments about other people, (with all you more experienced posters luring poor **Phase42** into forgetting himself (apology accepted). [/QUOTE] 1. He’s been here for over three years. 2) Lured? He was lured into posting? How do you figure? > [@](#): > > I’m going to consider, briefly, but I suspect that I am about to shut down this mess, especially if I see more of this “you’re bad”/“you’re mean” stuff that appears to be rooted more in personal feelings than any relevant factual information. > > [/Moderating] I’ve gone back and read the last three pages and while I agree that the level of debate is not of the highest, I see little evidence of this name-calling that you refer to ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/377 "2007-02-09T19:26:18Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] And it really seems to lend support to the position that we shouldn’t automatically categorize a person’s problems with punctuality as a deficiency in that person’s character, or as showing a lack of respect of some kind. -Kris [/QUOTE] Almost all of the people who complain about tardiness are complaining about people who \*can \*be on time for certain things, or make commitments that they should know they are not likely to keep, unless they are so unaware of time that they do not even \*know \*that they are late. Does this describe anyone you know? The people I complain about are always making excuses for their tardiness, so they know that they are late. And usually, the excuse proves my point that they make choices that put me at the back of the line. “The phone rang as I was going out the door.” “Eliot dropped by.” "I had to wash my hair. “I was low on gas.” “Etc. etc. etc.” Never do I even get a call saying their will be a delay. So yeah, I take it personally, and yeah, I think it is a choice. ---
**Author:** ![AHoosierMama](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/258eb7/32.png) [@AHoosierMama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHoosierMama)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/378 "2007-02-09T19:35:39Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] \ Sort of thrill-seeking, finding a (to me somewhat strange) sense of personal satisfaction in cramming their schedules, feeling strong displeasure at the prospect of sitting with nothing they have to do, having particularly inaccurate ideas about how much time is passing and how long things take to do, and so on. [/QUOTE] Add to the author’s observations of the Tardy my own discovery of what seems to be a need (conscious or not) for validation - or a test of your friendship. "I’m late again. \*Still \* wanna be my friend? I’ll test you again next week to remind myself that I _am_ worthy (of waiting for) and I _do_ have friends. Note also that the author describes the problem as a _habit_, not a medically diagnosed condition. ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 7:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/379 "2007-02-09T19:36:03Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] As a result of **H&R** ’s comment about “magical thinking,” I did a google search for that term along with the name of the author of the book. Here’s an [interesting link](http://onlineorganizing.com/NewslettersArticle.asp?newsletter=go&article=20) describing some of the content of that book and some of what she says about the psychology of chronic tardiness. -FrL- [/QUOTE] Sounds like a very interesting book. I like that name a lot. That really nails my boss. That’s _exactly_ what he is - eternally optimistic about time. Thinking he can leave the office at 4:15 to get to court by the 4:30 filing deadline, when it took 15 minutes _just for the driving part_, on the best day ever. > [@](#): > > This is due to what she calls magical thinking – eternal optimism even in the presence of contradictory evidence. “It’s the unshakable ability to believe you can drive the ten miles to work in seven minutes flat.” Magical thinkers use time estimates based on that one day ten years ago when everything went exactly right – the lights were green and they found parking in front of the building. I have a friend who engages in “magical thinking”, and I believe it is rooted in general anxiety and low self-esteem. This person chronically underestimates the amount of time a given task will take. I believe it’s because this person is disappointed with how mundane their life is, and harbors this fantasy that they can do all these wonderful things in one day. So it might be 8:00 in the evening, and they might want to go out for dinner, drinks, and dancing at a place that’s an hour and a half away, and maybe stop to do some shopping on the way, when they have to get up at 7:00 the next morning. ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [February 9, 2007, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/380 "2007-02-09T19:54:45Z")
[QUOTE=Hilarity N. Suze] So. One day, at one such job, where I knew my boss would like me to get there earlier, I woke up, misread my alarm clock, and ended up getting to work a whole hour before I usually did, i.e. 7:45. And I was a mess. My legs were weak, my eyes didn’t work, my boss actually had to bring coffee to my desk, and I was good for nothing except to sit there and stare at the _Wall Street Journal_ for an hour. Yet my boss said, over and over, how much he appreciated my being there early. I kept wondering _Why?_ I was useless. […] I’m not a morning person. I’m really, really not. It doesn’t matter when I go to bed or when I get up, I’m just pretty much nonfunctional before 10 a.m. Without a superhuman (for me) effort I will be late to anything starting before that hour, which is to say that I can make an early plane flight, an early meeting, or the appointment to pick up the lottery check if that’s when I have to be there, but to do it routinely ruins my life. [/QUOTE] Something I’m noticing about all the “late” people posting here is that they all seem to make the tacit assumption that being early is _easy_ for everyone else on the planet. That’s really not the case. I and most people I know feel exactly the same way when we have to get up early. It’s not fun and it requires a great deal of effort. There are days when I feel like I couldn’t possibly muster the energy to get out of bed, and I literally have to force myself to do it. I suppose if you do it every day, you get used to it, but it just about kills me when I have to get up early for a job. I just _do_ it, because I have to. All I can say is, “Welcome to the club”. But I do agree with those who are saying it’s not as easy to change one’s habits as some are suggesting. You can’t just _tell_ yourself to be on time; it requires learning new behavior patterns. I suspect it’s rather like telling an alcoholic to “just stop drinking”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553.md?page=18) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553.md?page=20)