# Is punctuality a choice? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2007, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553 "2007-02-02T16:05:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 24
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/461 "2007-02-10T17:56:35Z")
[QUOTE=Asimovian] What has been pointed out to you repeatedly, and what you seem to have ignored, repeatedly, is that we have no way of knowing what percentage of that four percent has ADD that would manifest itself in the form of chronic tardiness. [/QUOTE] It should be evident that it doesn’t matter. That some people with ADD are chronically tardy is all the information you need to allow that as a possible cause for your friend’s being late and to investigate that cause. Even if it’s .000009 per cent, your friend could be in that percentage and unless you know for sure, you can’t discount that possibilty. > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Every time you drag out this dead horse, I will respond until you get it. No one is accusing anyone of choosing to be late. Funny you of all people would claim that ‘nobody accuses anyone of choosing to be late’. In your own words: (my bold) > [@](#): > > we both know that they can be on time, **they just choose not to** when it involves me. You maybe want to reread your own posts. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/462 "2007-02-10T17:59:37Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] Do you realize that “miniscule” means “small”? In your sector of the universe, is 4% huge? (I’m going to ignore the fact that the 4% stat by itself is not meaningful, a fact you have continued to ignore.) [/QUOTE] No, it’s not ‘miniscule’ at all. Look at the sidewalk on a city street. You’re looking at some hundreds of people. Right there will be some tens of people with ADD. If the incidence was one in 25,000, it’s approaching small. At 1 in 50,000 or 100,000, then it’s smaller. ‘Miniscule’ is when you’re at the .00001 level. And **Contrapuntal** , it sounds like you have a gf who is late a lot to see you but early for other things. This sounds much more like a relationship issue. ‘Chronically late’ means for everything, not just for things involving you. It should be obvious that being late only in certain situations is not the same thing. So if that’s the basis for all your posts, you don’t have a dog in this little tussle. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/463 "2007-02-10T18:04:22Z")
> [@Stratocastor](#): > > This is astounding. The responsibility for the aggravation created by latesters is the person who is left waiting. Unbelievable. This seems to be the foundation of a number of peoples position. That anyone would try to debate from this two legged stool is pretty unbelieveable to me as well. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/464 "2007-02-10T18:06:25Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] No, it’s not ‘miniscule’ at all. Look at the sidewalk on a city street. You’re looking at some hundreds of people. Right there will be some tens of people with ADD. If the incidence was one in 25,000, it’s approaching small. At 1 in 50,000 or 100,000, then it’s smaller. ‘Miniscule’ is when you’re at the .00001 level. [/quote] That’s funny too. Miniscule doesn’t mean what you want it to. It means what it means. There is not some scientific scale of “miniscule.” I’m really beginning to like you. You’re a riot. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/465 "2007-02-10T18:07:37Z")
[QUOTE=enipla] This seems to be the foundation of a number of peoples position. That anyone would try to debate from this two legged stool is pretty unbelieveable to me as well. [/QUOTE] I like your “two-legged stool” reference. I’m going to steal it for future use. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/466 "2007-02-10T18:09:10Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] No, it’s not ‘miniscule’ at all. Look at the sidewalk on a city street. You’re looking at some hundreds of people. Right there will be some tens of people with ADD. [/QUOTE] By the way, if you want to be precise, on a sidewalk with hundreds of people, there will be fours of people with ADD. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/467 "2007-02-10T18:11:05Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] By the way, if you want to be precise, on a sidewalk with hundreds of people, there will be fours of people with ADD. 😃 [/QUOTE] 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/468 "2007-02-10T18:13:54Z")
[QUOTE=enipla] This seems to be the foundation of a number of peoples position. That anyone would try to debate from this two legged stool is pretty unbelieveable to me as well. [/QUOTE] Ever read Albert Ellis. Really, do. The ultimate in ‘personal responsibility’, in fact, is that you \*and only you \*are responsible for how you feel. Nobody can ‘make’ you feel anything if you don’t want to feel it. Which is why people being late don’t ‘make’ me feel bad. I choose to not be upset by it. You can make a similar choice. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/469 "2007-02-10T18:14:29Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] It should be evident that it doesn’t matter. That some people with ADD are chronically tardy is all the information you need to allow that as a possible cause for your friend’s being late and to investigate that cause. Even if it’s .000009 per cent, your friend could be in that percentage and unless you know for sure, you can’t discount that possibilty. [/QUOTE] There is a better chance that your friend is a murderer. Do you discount that possibility? > [@](#): > > Funny you of all people would claim that ‘nobody accuses anyone of choosing to be late’. In your own words: (my bold) > You maybe want to reread your own posts. Asked and answered. It is you who insisted that we were claiming malice; the distinction was made to (hopefully) get you to engage in the debate honestly. The direct charge is choosing an action that necessarily results in tardiness. Now, I happen to believe that that equals choosing to be late, but since that charge kicks you into an infinite feedback loop, the amendment was made. \*\*Stipulated: The chronically tardy are choosing actions that result in tardiness. No other conclusions may be drawn. \*\* Fair enough? > [@](#): > > And Contrapuntal, it sounds like you have a gf who is late a lot to see you but early for other things. This sounds much more like a relationship issue. ‘Chronically late’ means for everything, not just for things involving you. It should be obvious that being late only in certain situations is not the same thing. So if that’s the basis for all your posts, you don’t have a dog in this little tussle. Gosh. Are you not the one who admonishes against making assumptions? The one who says we have no way of knowing anything unless we are told it precisely? Do these rules not apply to you as well? I don’t have a girlfriend. Precisely. So you have assumed incorrectly. This person was brought up to dispute your claim that I have no way of knowing why she was late. A point, I might add, that you never addressed. As seems to be your habit with inconvenient facts. You wish them away. Re-read the OP. “Chronically late” means late for commitments made to the OP. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/470 "2007-02-10T18:18:59Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] BTW, chronic latesters may remain my friends, but I give them absolutely no power to inconvenience me once they’ve established that pattern. If I’m planning on something fun and social, I make sure I invite more than that person, and if/when they don’t show up on time, no big deal. I’m starting when we said we would. BTW, you’d be surprised how often this changes the latester’s behavior, and he suddenly finds the ability to get his ass ready when we said we’d pick him up, after a couple of times when we leave without him. [/QUOTE] Do you think this somehow makes a point against the “defenders of the tardy” that are posting on this thread? Because it doesn’t. If you think it does, then you have failed to understand what is being communicated to you. As a “defender” I would say that in the above example, you’ve done exactly what I think you should do wrt late types. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/471 "2007-02-10T18:20:43Z")
**QG** Sheesss where to start. When someone else wastes my time it does not make me feel bad about myself. OK? Tell you what. I’ll see you at 4th and Main in an hour. If I don’t show up, that’s your problem. And apparently, your fault if you feel somewhat slighted because I did not make it. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/472 "2007-02-10T18:22:39Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] As a “defender” I would say that in the above example, you’ve done exactly what I think you should do wrt late types. [/quote] Ditto. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/473 "2007-02-10T18:24:52Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Gosh. Are you not the one who admonishes against making assumptions? The one who says we have no way of knowing anything unless we are told it precisely? Do these rules not apply to you as well? I don’t have a girlfriend. Precisely. So you have assumed incorrectly. This person was brought up to dispute your claim that I have no way of knowing why she was late. A point, I might add, that you never addressed. As seems to be your habit with inconvenient facts. You wish them away. Re-read the OP. “Chronically late” means late for commitments made to the OP. [/QUOTE] The point is, if you are talking about people who are consistently late with you, but not with other matters, then you are not talking about the people we are talking about. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/474 "2007-02-10T18:27:41Z")
[QUOTE=enipla] **QG** Sheesss where to start. When someone else wastes my time it does not make me feel bad about myself. OK? Tell you what. I’ll see you at 4th and Main in an hour. If I don’t show up, that’s your problem. And apparently, your fault if you feel somewhat slighted because I did not make it. [/QUOTE] > [@](#): > > Even when others are so disturbed that they do things which annoy or injure us, most of our annoyance stems not from their behavior but by the injustice-collecting idea that we take toward this behavior. Albert Ellis > [@](#): > > Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT) is a form of psychotherapy created by Albert Ellis in the 1950’s. > > REBT is based on the premise that whenever we become upset,\*\* it is not the events taking place in our lives that upset us; it is the beliefs that we hold that cause us to become depressed, anxious, enraged, etc.\*\* The idea that our beliefs upset us was first articulated by Epictetus around 2,000 years ago: “Men are disturbed not by events, but by the views which they take of them.” [What is Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy (REBT)? - REBT Network: Albert Ellis | Rational Emotive Behavior Therapy](http://www.rebtnetwork.org/whatis.html) ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/475 "2007-02-10T18:28:55Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Do you think this somehow makes a point against the “defenders of the tardy” that are posting on this thread? Because it doesn’t. If you think it does, then you have failed to understand what is being communicated to you. As a “defender” I would say that in the above example, you’ve done exactly what I think you should do wrt late types. [/QUOTE] And as a “person who possesses basic reading comprehension” I would suggest to you that there are many “defenders of the tardy” in this thread who have suggested otherwise, particularly if we consider the portion of my post you didn’t choose (deliberately ;)) to include. And you likewise ignore my point regarding people who I have no track record with, who impose their tardiness on me as well. Do they count? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/476 "2007-02-10T18:40:57Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] The point is, if you are talking about people who are consistently late with you, but not with other matters, then you are not talking about the people we are talking about. -FrL- [/QUOTE] With respect, says who? The OP is talking about people who are late _with her_. No other restrictions are mentioned. I think you will find that \*many \*of us are talking about people who have shown that they \*can \*be on time; in fact, several disclaimers have been stated that someone who is _absolutely unable_ to be on time is not the topic of discussion. Considering that they only account for .000009 _per cent_ (what’s that, one out of every 100 million? Help me with the math here,) why would they even be a topic of interest? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/477 "2007-02-10T18:47:33Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] No, it’s not ‘miniscule’ at all. Look at the sidewalk on a city street. You’re looking at some hundreds of people. Right there will be some tens of people with ADD. [/QUOTE] _::: sigh :::_ Let us suppose for the moment that your 4% figure is carved in stone and cast in concrete. The appropriate response to that figure as numerous posters have indicated, is “So what?”. Both of my kids are ADD. My daughter would never get anywhere on time if an adult did not wind her up and put her on the appropriate form of transportation. That is great for your hypothesis. On the other hand, my son will either sit in front of a game or movie until it is too late for him to arrive on time or he will leave the house (or ask for a ride) in a time that will get him to his destination as much as 40 minutes early. Now given that some sufferes of ADD will be chronically late and some sufferers of ADD will arrive chronically early and some sufferers of ADD will arrive either late or early and some sufferers of ADD will (through an heroic exertion of effort) arrive on time nearly all the time, your “4%” is meaningless, because we do not know what percent of that four percent actually fall into one of four possible separate categories, (nor do we, with only the raw 4% figure that only applies to ADD) know how many persons are chronically late for some reason other than ADD, such as passive aggression, OCD, contempt for society or their friends, narcissism, Temporal Confusion Syndrome, or a host of other possible causes. The reason that no one is interested in your “4% ADD” figure is that it is, at best, a partial explanation of a phenomenon that cannot be explained by only a single cause. Now, at the beginning of this thread, I tended to be sympathetic to discussions of the difficulty of tracking time. I suffer cases of this, myself. There are activities in which I can tell, nearly to the minute how long I have been engaged. There are activities for which I can never gauge how long I have been participating. I am also a person who has trouble showing up at the exact moment that I am expected. (“Have trouble” however, does not translate to “does not” and “late” is more likely to mean a minute or so, not 20 minutes.) I have had several jobs (as a contract programmer) where my attendance was not required at 8:00 sharp and I would use my non-employee status to roll in at 8:30 or later–as long as there was not a meeting scheduled at 8:00, for which I would be on time. On the other hand, at five o’clock as the “real” staff filed out the door, I would generally continue working for one or two hours (meaning that the staff was able to eat dinner while I covered their emergency maintenance calls, making my later morning arrival more acceptable to them). When I have worked retail, I have had to be on time and, despite the fact that it took extra effort to achieve, I was on time. Early claims by some posters that made absolute declarations that no one should be late or that people who were late were just being self-indulgent, therefore, tended to rub me the wrong way. However, as this trainwreck has progressed, despite the shrill tones on both sides, it is pretty clear that all but the most virulent of the promptness proponents are willing to allow for some adjustment to a person’s schedule as long as the person who has trouble with time does not impose on others, **particularly chronically**. As long as you continue to harp on the fact that some tiny number of persons suffer a particular problem as though that excuses all similar behavior, even when your own references are inadequate to justify all such rude behavior and despite the fact that some persons suffering from the condition to which you seem to ascribe all the problems have posted in this thread noting that they have found ways to overcome thir disability, then you are going to both fail to make whatever point you believe you are making as well as continue to irritate both the extreme **and** the moderate opponents you face. Your more recent point that it is the problem of people who have been delayed by the tardy because they should be able to not let such things bother them will do you no good. They can simply turn that around and say that the tardy person has no reason to feel ostracized when they stop getting invitations or upset for being fired when they fail to arrive at their job on time and no reason to be upset if a prompt person yells at them. After all, even if they cannot control their tardy behavior, surely they can control their personal reactions to the responses it brings. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/478 "2007-02-10T18:51:54Z")
Huh? What are you? Some kind of commie? 😉 Your dear Albert Ellise may like living in a cave, but I have to interact with people. > [@Albert Ellise](#): > > it is not the events taking place in our lives that upset us; it is the **beliefs** that we hold that cause us to become depressed, anxious, enraged, etc. No shit? When someone says they will be somewhere at a certain time, they have planted a **belief** in my head. That, ummmm…. They will be there. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/479 "2007-02-10T18:53:55Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Considering that they only account for .000009 _per cent_ (what’s that, one out of every 100 million? Help me with the math here,) why would they even be a topic of interest? [/QUOTE] Correction. 9 out of 100 million. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/480 "2007-02-10T19:00:44Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] With respect, says who? The OP is talking about people who are late _with her_. No other restrictions are mentioned. I think you will find that \*many \*of us are talking about people who have shown that they \*can \*be on time; in fact, several disclaimers have been stated that someone who is _absolutely unable_ to be on time is not the topic of discussion. Considering that they only account for .000009 _per cent_ (what’s that, one out of every 100 million? Help me with the math here,) why would they even be a topic of interest? [/QUOTE] I think QG and I and others on this thread have made it clear who we are talking about–people who are generally late in all kinds of circumstances, without respect to who their appointment is with. I jumped into the discussion late in the thread, after that class of people had already been made a subject of discussion. If you’ve been sticking specifically with the class of people “late when it comes to me but not when it comes to other things” then, as I said, you’re not talking about who we (the “defenders”) are talking about. If the “defenders” are not talking about who the OP is talking about, then that could be a source of misunderstanding on this thread. But I don’t think it is, to be honest. It has been pretty clear who the “defenders” are talking about, and it seems people have been willing to talk about that class of people along with the defenders, without insisting on restricting the class to “those late with me but not with others.” Certainly many of the “non-defenders” who have, like me, jumped into the thread later, have seemed to me pretty clearly to be talking about people who are generally late, and not just people who are late just for some people or some kinds of events and not others. -FrL- [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553.md?page=23) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553.md?page=25)