# Is punctuality a choice? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2007, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553 "2007-02-02T16:05:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 26
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/501 "2007-02-10T21:42:26Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] - Understand that ‘insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result’. How bright is it, exactly, to continually get frustrated over someone being late when you yourself characterize the person as ‘habitually late’? . [/QUOTE] Several times you’ve suggested that “punctual” people need to make accomodation for “non-punctual” people. How exactly do you think it should be done? In private life, it’s fairly easy. You can use some combination of not making ‘time critical’ meetings with the NPP (invite them to your open house type parties, rather than going to concerts with them), lying to them if they are ‘reliably’ the same amount later, and so forth. But how about at work? What about when YOUR progress on a project is dependent on THEM doing their part punctually? For example, suppose you have NPPs as coworkers on a project. You need to have a meeting to discuss progress, and the meeting is pointless unless all members of the team are there to report on their portions and learn what’s going on with the other members. You want everyone there at 10 a.m. Do you send out individual announcements about the meeting to each person, and give each person a personalized start time, based on your best estimate of how late each one usually is? And hope no one ever compares notes so Ms. Always A Half Hour Late and Mr. Strolls in Ten Minutes Late and Mrs. Right On The Dot don’t realize that you are lying to two of them? Do you tell everyone the meeting is at ten, and resign yourself to the fact that all the Punctual People will have to waste a half hour of work time waiting for the tardiest of the NPP to finally show? Do you start the meeting on time, and then have to interrupt and recap what has already been discussed for each of the NPs as they arrive? What if there is a ‘natural order’ for how the reports need to be given, and you can’t progress sensibly without hearing from a NP who isn’t there? Maybe you should you assign a ‘handler’ to each NPP to drag/goad them to the meeting on time? All of those solutions require devoting (‘wasting’) extra time and effort – how much of that should coworkers/the business have to do? Are their other solutions you can suggest? ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/502 "2007-02-10T22:04:49Z")
[QUOTE=StarvingButStrong] Are their other solutions you can suggest? [/QUOTE] Atomic wedgies, from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/503 "2007-02-10T22:11:13Z")
> [@](#): > > Contrapuntal > Which, according to her, is 9 out of 100 million people Complete and total misquote of me, **Contrapuntal**. Kindly reread what I posted. I was talking about what ‘miniscule’ is and said that .0009% would be deemed ‘miniscule’ as opposed to 4%. Nothing whatsoever to do with the rest of this thread - just the semantics of ‘miniscule’. [QUOTE=enipla] QG, in a previous post you said that those that are habitually late are not damaging. If you believe that is true, why did you seek out help for you and your SO? [/quote] Because living with someone with undiagnosed and untreated ADD (and several other comorbid disorders) is exceedingly difficult. Because he’d blame all his issues (lateness was not one) on having dyslexia and, when I read further, I discovered that while dyslexia isn’t related to the issues, a lot of people with dyslexia also have ADD, which does. He had a whole lot of the other behaviours. The most difficult was probably forgetfulness, followed by lack of ability to plan. In the research I did, I learned that chronic lateness was one of the more common symptoms (not the medical diagnosis symptoms but the ‘what it’s like to live with people with ADD’ symptoms from all the links I posted). I also read a lot of information written by people with ADD about their struggles with all these issues. And the hard part to listen to is how terrible their self-esteem is because people insist on seeing as character flaws things that the ADDers were not able to fix by ‘just trying’. And then I met people and physicians and experts and attended conferences and learned a lot more. And I read boards populated by ADDers and learned more from them. But the upshot of it back when I read the ADHD e-book, particularly the part about little kids in school getting punished for the same thing over and over because they forget lessons, can’t foresee consequences, and are bad at planning made me realize that nobody would continue to get punished and continue the behaviour unless something was truly amiss with them. One of the sayings I’ve always loved is that one ought not judge someone until one has walked a mile in their shoes. Unless you know what it is to be ADD, you have no right to judge them for how they are. What’s very poignant is the huge struggles they go through just to appear normal. And, for those who insist on reading everything I say to mean ‘every single person with ADD’, that’s not the case but it is for a significant number of people. I think humans are sadly unwilling to extend a bit of compassion to one another in these hard-assed days and that’s a huge shame. And for the umpteenth time I’m not saying everyone who’s late has ADD etc. only that it’s worth giving someone the benefit of doubt and finding out. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/504 "2007-02-10T22:15:40Z")
[QUOTE=StarvingButStrong] But how about at work? [/QUOTE] Management issue. Find out if the person has some problem. If so, figure out what accommodations need to be made. If not, point out the different helping aids available and even (if you’re a real nice boss) offer to assist them in getting one or two. Or find out if they can be reassigned to a job where time isn’t an issue. There’s plenty you can do if you are a good boss. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/505 "2007-02-10T22:28:46Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] Complete and total misquote of me, **Contrapuntal**. Kindly reread what I posted. I was talking about what ‘miniscule’ is and said that .0009% would be deemed ‘miniscule’ as opposed to 4%. Nothing whatsoever to do with the rest of this thread - just the semantics of ‘miniscule’. [/QUOTE] This is what you said. > [@](#): > > It should be evident that it doesn’t matter. That some people with ADD are chronically tardy is all the information you need to allow that as a possible cause for your friend’s being late and to investigate that cause. Even if it’s .000009 per cent, your friend could be in that percentage and unless you know for sure, you can’t discount that possibilty. In response to this question. > [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Asimovian** > What has been pointed out to you repeatedly, and what you seem to have ignored, repeatedly, is that we have no way of knowing what percentage of that four percent has ADD that would manifest itself in the form of chronic tardiness. A question, I might add, that you have finally attempted to address after multiple requests to do so, only to avoid it altogether. It doesn’t matter? It really doesn’t matter? You give an example that amounts to fewer than thirty people in the entire country and state that we should assume that everyone who is late possibly has this affliction? Do you really live your life that way. Do you assume that everyone you meet is a murderer? Thief? Child molester? Terrorist? Arsonist? Rapist? Millionaire? Evangelical minister? Senator? Presidential candidate? Suffering from dementia? How can you say it doesn’t matter? Why is ADD a special case when it comes to statistics? There is every reason in the world to discount the possibility that a situation that occurs nine times out of one hundred million is actually present. You have a better chance of purchasing a winning lottery ticket _every time you buy one_. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/506 "2007-02-10T22:34:52Z")
**Even if** ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/507 "2007-02-10T22:35:31Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] Management issue. Find out if the person has some problem. If so, figure out what accommodations need to be made. If not, point out the different helping aids available and even (if you’re a real nice boss) offer to assist them in getting one or two. Or find out if they can be reassigned to a job where time isn’t an issue. There’s plenty you can do if you are a good boss. [/QUOTE] See, I think this is exactly the wrong attitude to have, if a person wants to gain control over their problem. The second you decide that it’s management’s problem to figure out how to deal with it, you abdicate reponsibility for doing so yourself. It is nice when management can accomodate different personalities and situations, but depending on the number of people involved and the types of tasks involved, that can become an impossible task. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/508 "2007-02-10T22:42:49Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] **Even if** [/QUOTE] Is this your response? The chances of the person sitting beside you on the bus being a psycho killer are much greater than nine out of one hundred million. \*\*\*Even if \*\*\*it were \*only \*nine out of one hundred million, would that be your default assumption? Would you treat him as a psycho killer? Do you treat every random person on the street as a rapist, \*\*\*even if \*\*\*the odds are only .000009 per cent that they are? ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/509 "2007-02-10T22:52:00Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Why would you think it is up to you how you react to an axe slicing through your flesh? Do you have any control over that reaction? Do you think its even possible for someone to have control over their reaction to such a situation? -FrL- [/QUOTE] That’s what _you_ think. It’s not all about you, you know. And I’m not just talking about the actual murder. I’m also referring to when I was stalked, and when I was chased up the stairs, and I was cornered in a dark room while the maniac waved his axe about menacingly. The whole time, I managed to “own” my feelings and take it in stride. And now you come in and piss all over my axe murder, while all I’m doing is oozing all over the linoleum, looking for a little peace, love and understanding. Try to see it from my perspective, okay? ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/510 "2007-02-10T22:54:07Z")
[QUOTE=Hilarity N. Suze] Your suspicions are way off base. In one instance here is what happened. At the job interview I was told that the hours were flexible and I could show up any time between 7 and 9 a.m., adjusting the time I left accordingly. Great. This was not only what my prospective boss said, but it was in the employee handbook in black and white. This was a salaried position, not hourly, and my prospective boss did point out that it was not a 40-hour week. When they say that, it never means fewer than 40 hours–and I was okay with that, too. So for the first few weeks I got there always before 9. The only time I arrived after 9 was when my car broke down (and it was a brand-new car, too) and AAA didn’t arrive for a couple of hours. Then my boss sat me down and let me know that she was _extremelly unhappy_ when I wasn’t at my desk by 8:30, and 8 would be even better. We had an editorial meeting every Friday at 10, so being late for meetings was not the problem. The problem was that my boss got there at 7 and started thinking of things she wanted to tell me at approximately 7:05 and she didn’t want to wait. Well…this wasn’t how the hours were presented to me, or I likely wouldn’t have taken the job. She said flex time, 7 to 9, and if she expected me to show up closer to 7 than 9 every day, with an occasional lapse to 8:30 or 8:45, she should have said so. In the other instance I told my boss that I had children to get off to school and because of that it would be extremely hard for me to show up before 9 and he said okay. Two weeks into the job it turned out it was not okay and it was a source of conflict for the entire time I had the job. In my current job, I was 30 minutes late _for the job interview_ (because I got lost), so they were well warned. It hasn’t been a problem. [/QUOTE] Great–have you consulted a lawyer about this gross violation of your employee handbook? Because I think that if you were told anytime between 7 and 9, but you got fired or harrassed or reprimanded in any way because you didn’t show up at a more specific hour than your employee handbook specifies, you’ve got a pretty good case. I suspect more went on here than we’re being told as well. On your other job, were you lying when you told him you had to get your kids off to school before 9 a.m.? Because if you weren’t, this kinda implies that you are in fact, when you choose to be, capable of doing important things before the hour of 9 a.m.. Or is there something about showing up at work, as opposed to giving your kids your attention, that you’re incapable of doing? At any rate, did you get it in writing that you were to be completely and totally exempt ever from showing up before 9 a.m.? Seems that was what you absolutely required, and you should have requested that letter from your boss, if not immediately following your interview, then the first time you had the slightest hint that this was going to become an issue. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/511 "2007-02-10T22:54:33Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] Hey, that’s great! Means you’ve even surpassed Ellis and are a full-blown nirvana-experiencing Buddhist! Congrats! 🙂 [/QUOTE] See? That’s the kind of reaction I was hoping for. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/512 "2007-02-10T23:13:43Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] It’s not all about you, you know. [/QUOTE] I don’t have the first clue why you wrote this sentence, and this causes me to doubt I understand your post as a whole at all. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/513 "2007-02-10T23:15:11Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] That’s what _you_ think. It’s not all about you, you know. And I’m not just talking about the actual murder. I’m also referring to when I was stalked, and when I was chased up the stairs, and I was cornered in a dark room while the maniac waved his axe about menacingly. The whole time, I managed to “own” my feelings and take it in stride. And now you come in and piss all over my axe murder, while all I’m doing is oozing all over the linoleum, looking for a little peace, love and understanding. Try to see it from my perspective, okay? [/QUOTE] Your story is making my point for me. The story is absurd because it is well known people don’t have the kind of control you are ascribing to yourself. Which, in turn, renders your story irrelevant to the argument the story is trying to make a point against. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/514 "2007-02-10T23:20:55Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] I don’t have the first clue why you wrote this sentence, and this causes me to doubt I understand your post as a whole at all. -FrL- [/QUOTE] One more instance of you failing to consider my perspective. Typical. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/515 "2007-02-10T23:21:57Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Your story is making my point for me. The story is absurd because it is well known people don’t have the kind of control you are ascribing to yourself. [/QUOTE] Are you suggesting maybe I wasn’t really axe murdered? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/516 "2007-02-10T23:24:03Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] Are you suggesting maybe I wasn’t really axe murdered? [/QUOTE] Even if there is only a nine out of one hundred million chance that you were, we must treat it as if it were so. Can I have your stereo? ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/517 "2007-02-10T23:37:46Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] Are you suggesting maybe I wasn’t really axe murdered? [/QUOTE] If your jokes have relevance to the present discussion, I have failed to see it. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/518 "2007-02-10T23:39:25Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Even if there is only a nine out of one hundred million chance that you were, we must treat it as if it were so. Can I have your stereo? [/QUOTE] Everywhere I turn, insensitivity. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/519 "2007-02-10T23:42:06Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Even if there is only a nine out of one hundred million chance that you were, we must treat it as if it were so. Can I have your stereo? [/QUOTE] Heh. The odds are bad but you have nothing to lose. Make sure to get rid of the video tapes in the lower drawer. This thread is so far out there that it is hard not to crack a joke… But. One last try. > [@QG](#): > > Because living with someone with undiagnosed and untreated ADD (and several other comorbid disorders) is exceedingly difficult. So you now agree that having someone in your life that is always late is **exceedingly difficult**. And, ummmm. Isn’t this what we have all been saying? I’ll repeat it. **Exceedingly difficult.**. Those are your words. And you claimed that this behavior is not damaging? Would you agree that someone that is habitually late can cause troubles for those that wait for them? Yes or No. If we can get beyond this simple question, we can continue. Yes, or No. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 10, 2007, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/520 "2007-02-10T23:42:17Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] If your jokes have relevance to the present discussion, I have failed to see it. [/QUOTE] And your failure to see my point of view is _my_ problem? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553.md?page=25) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553.md?page=27)