# Is punctuality a choice? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 2, 2007, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553 "2007-02-02T16:05:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 27
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 1:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/521 "2007-02-11T01:12:55Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] Great–have you consulted a lawyer about this gross violation of your employee handbook? Because I think that if you were told anytime between 7 and 9, but you got fired or harrassed or reprimanded in any way because you didn’t show up at a more specific hour than your employee handbook specifies, you’ve got a pretty good case. I suspect more went on here than we’re being told as well. On your other job, were you lying when you told him you had to get your kids off to school before 9 a.m.? Because if you weren’t, this kinda implies that you are in fact, when you choose to be, capable of doing important things before the hour of 9 a.m.. Or is there something about showing up at work, as opposed to giving your kids your attention, that you’re incapable of doing? At any rate, did you get it in writing that you were to be completely and totally exempt ever from showing up before 9 a.m.? Seems that was what you absolutely required, and you should have requested that letter from your boss, if not immediately following your interview, then the first time you had the slightest hint that this was going to become an issue. [/QUOTE] What the hell is your problem? When I ask, at the job interview, if it’s a problem if my typical starting time is 9 a.m. and they say no it’s not, then I expect it not to be a problem. Ever. If they say that sometimes there will be a meeting starting earlier that I’m expected to attend, but not very often, and I agree to that, I will be at the meeting. However, if my typical starting time gets moved up from what I originally agreed to, then I get a bit testy, which is what has happened on more than one occasion. Now it is true that I have been flat-out fired from a job, and while it wasn’t strictly morning tardiness, that was a factor for sure. This was early in my career–hell, not even a career, just the first job out of college–when I didn’t realize that everything was negotiable. I don’t have a problem with my current job. I was late for the job interview and asked for a bigger salary than they had budgeted, by about 8K a year, and they hired me anyway and met my price. You sure have a lot of suspicions. I’m glad I don’t have anyone like you working under me. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/522 "2007-02-11T02:15:24Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] And your failure to see my point of view is _my_ problem? [/QUOTE] If you would like me to understand you, then it is. -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/523 "2007-02-11T02:16:58Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] If you would like me to understand you, then it is. -FrL- [/QUOTE] It’s _your_ job to understand me. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/524 "2007-02-11T02:20:31Z")
[QUOTE=Hilarity N. Suze] What the hell is your problem? [/QUOTE] I’m still waiting to hear about the lawyer you didn’t consult for (at least) harassment specifically protected by your black-and-white employee handbook. Also why your kids can expect your prompt and focused attention before 9 a.m. but not your boss. That’s two of my problems. You can answer either one first. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 2:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/525 "2007-02-11T02:23:24Z")
[QUOTE=Contrapuntal] Is this your response? [/quote] Oh ye gods. I used it as a hypothetical. It is not the real case. PEOPLE WITH ADD ARE NOT.00009 OF THE POPULATION. Cripes. Do you misread stuff like this deliberately? I used .00009 as a hypothetical NOT ABOUT ADD BUT ABOUT THE WORD ‘MINISCULE’. There, if I print it nice and big do you understand? ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/526 "2007-02-11T02:26:21Z")
[QUOTE=enipla] So you now agree that having someone in your life that is always late is **exceedingly difficult**. **NO** I said, **specifically, in so many words** , that LATENESS WAS **NOT** HIS PROBLEM. How exactly, do you folks manage to read something and completely miss what was said??? I’ll discuss with people who at least manage to read the words I’ve typed here but this is ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/527 "2007-02-11T02:36:31Z")
[QUOTE=Stratocaster] It’s _your_ job to understand me. [/QUOTE] Indeed, and I have failed. And if you would like me not to have failed, then my failure is a problem you face. What’s yer damn point? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/528 "2007-02-11T02:44:06Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] Indeed, and I have failed. And if you would like me not to have failed, then my failure is a problem you face. What’s yer damn point? -FrL- [/QUOTE] Why do you keep trying to make this my problem? ---
**Author:** ![Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/heffalump_and_roo/32/7691_2.png) [@Heffalump\_and\_Roo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Heffalump_and_Roo)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/529 "2007-02-11T03:54:49Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] Oh ye gods. I used it as a hypothetical. It is not the real case. PEOPLE WITH ADD ARE NOT.00009 OF THE POPULATION. [/QUOTE] [ > [@Quiddity Glomfuster](#): > > Why must people come up with ludicrous hypotheticals and then pretend they prove a point? They don’t and yours didn’t. ]([http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8241866&postcount=320](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8241866&postcount=320)) \*this is not a typo. This is **QG** quoted back to her own comments from this same thread. Maybe it will go into an endless feedback loop. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 4:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/530 "2007-02-11T04:16:35Z")
[QUOTE=pseudotriton ruber ruber] I’m still waiting to hear about the lawyer you didn’t consult for (at least) harassment specifically protected by your black-and-white employee handbook. Also why your kids can expect your prompt and focused attention before 9 a.m. but not your boss. That’s two of my problems. You can answer either one first. [/QUOTE] Lawyer? Why I put my _kids_ before my _boss?_ Good god, man, chill. Get a grip. I think you’re way too type A. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 6:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/531 "2007-02-11T06:59:51Z")
This thread is _CRAZY_!!! I have just a couple of points: 1. I’m very punctual, when I need to be. I include under times that I need to be punctual - meeting friends for occasions, flying places, going to class, etc. I’m not really punctual for work, because no one much cares when I show up. 2. I’m an ESTJ. 3. I don’t much care if people are late for meetings with me - I’m very accomodating, and have friends who will show up 10 or 15 minutes late for lunches and what not - this isn’t a big deal. Events with a specific start time after which attendence is not possible are a different matter. Now, the thing I don’t understand - **QG** - you seem to be arguing just for the sake of arguing. You’ve said that some aspects of your ex-SO’s behaviour - caused by ADHD - made it very difficult to live with him. Further, you suggest that you can never know what another person is thinking or how they feel. And yet, if someone says that another person’s chronic lateness makes them difficult to live with/work with/be friends with, you dismiss their concerns as unimportant. You go on to say that someone else’s chronic lateness is in no way damaging. Shame on you. Just because lateness does not affect you negitively, it doesn’t mean that others aren’t negitively affected. Really, I get that you think you’re making a point, but you’re not. You keep saying the same thing over and over again - namely that chronic lateness isn’t a big deal and people should get the hell over it, but other personality quirks - such as being offended by chronic lateness - are problems that those posessing them need to address. You can’t have it both ways. FWIW, I have been damaged by another’s chronic lateness. I’ve missed shows and functions and wasted expensive tickets because a former SO couldn’t manage to get his shit together enough to be on time. I put up with it at the time, I would not put up with it now. This doesn’t make me a bad person - it makes me someone who will not allow another person’s “brain issue”/inconsideration/passive agressiveness ruin my evening. There is someone in the world for whom his lateness, and missing functions, and wasting money because he’s chronicly late is not an issue. I am not that person. ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 9:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/532 "2007-02-11T09:35:28Z")
[QUOTE=Sarahfeena] The point of telling this story is that when this thread first opened, I was going to reply that, yes, I believe punctuality is a choice, but that I’m sure it is much harder for some people than others, and that some naturally-punctual people probably don’t understand the effort it takes some folks, and what goes on in their heads that keeps them from being on time without major effort. [/quote] “Naturally-punctual people”? I don’t know that there _is_ such a thing. It’s a skill that has to be learned just like anything else. > [@](#): > > At this point, I don’t know what to make of all of this. Despite my younger years of struggling in school because of my inability to plan, I am in a field where my job requires that I plan out my life in the 1- to 3-week increments that I have always found so baffling. I work under constant deadline, and have figured out coping mechanisms so that I don’t drive myself crazy. It takes effort. It takes writing down lists. It takes looking at a calendar every day and counting out how many days until X is going to occur, and looking at all the prep for that occurance, and making sure I’m on track with it. You sound normal to me. I don’t know a single organized person who does not write down lists and check his/her planner every day. We all do it; you’re just like everyone else. Anyone who can remember a complex schedule for an entire week, just in his/her head, is truly gifted. That would be quite unusual. To me, your post sort of reads like: _I think there’s something wrong with me. I have to inhale oxygen constantly - many times per minute. I sometimes eat meals 3 times or more per day; if I don’t, I feel extremely hungry. Since I’m the only one who has to eat food, it’s difficult for me to keep up with normal people._ 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/533 "2007-02-11T10:57:50Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] Oh ye gods. I used it as a hypothetical. It is not the real case. PEOPLE WITH ADD ARE NOT.00009 OF THE POPULATION. Cripes. Do you misread stuff like this deliberately? I used .00009 as a hypothetical NOT ABOUT ADD BUT ABOUT THE WORD ‘MINISCULE’. There, if I print it nice and big do you understand? [/QUOTE] I’ve quoted the entire exchange above. The word ‘miniscule’ does not appear. Neither does the word ‘hypothetical.’ (Hint: Saying “even if” does not create a hypothetical situation. It merely sets a limit.) You were asked what per cent of the four per cent are late because of ADD. Your only answer so far has been that i **t does not matter**. Was that hypothetical?, or _does_ it matter? Does it? Because that gets to the crux of the issue. Should we treat tardiness as an inescapable result of ADD or not? Even if it were nine out of a hundred million we should treat it is if it were one out of one? Is that still your answer? In other words, does it really matter, and did you just throw out a number because you actually have no clue what the real one is? Is it the case that you realize that your four per cent figure maybe, just maybe, has some purchase, but anything much below that is just special pleading? As **H & R** has pointed out, does your objection to hypotheticals only apply to others? ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 11:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/534 "2007-02-11T11:13:33Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] Don’t know what you’re frothing over. I’m responding to ‘only a miniscule number of people have ADD’. And the response is that 4% is not insignificant. Period. [/quote] But people with ADD have nothing to do with this thread! Why bring them up? Unless you want to qualify that population with a measurable degree of Brain Damage Lateosity, they’re meaningless to this conversation. > [@](#): > > Do I have to resort to the rudeness that others are using to make my own points? No, but some basic comprehension of the subject at hand might help. > [@](#): > > What I am trying to say should be understandable by people who’ve matriculated from junior school: some people have a condition that prevents them from being good with time therefore if you have a friend that is bad with time, give that person the benefit of the doubt rather than rushing to take affront. Normal human beings don’t give the “benefit of the doubt” on such slim odds, particularly with no proof. And believe me…they’re slim. Too slim to even consider in this debate. We’re talking about self-centered attention-whore primadonnas; most of which do not have ADD, and of those who DO have ADD, a mere smattering who can attribute their attention-whorelike behavior to their disorder. > [@](#): > > If you can give me one good reason why you ought not determine whether someone has done something to offend you deliberately before you choose to be offended, then I’ll suggest that you go to Congress and change all laws to read ‘guilty until proven innocent’. It’s not up to me (or you, incidently) to drag someone to the doctor and have them diagnosed as “incompetent to function in normal society”. Congress protects a person’s right to be an obnoxious attention whore OR someone with “brain damage.” > [@](#): > > If you cannot grok that accusing someone of malice or ‘disrespect’ or ‘bad behaviour’ without knowing that is true (meaning that the person himself has told you precisely that) is, exactly, ‘assuming guilt without evidence’, then I’m appalled, frankly. In my estimation, that position is indefensible, period. Sorry…I don’t automatically assume brain damage on people when the rest of their life is running smoothly. To do so would be insulting. > [@](#): > > You’re welcome to say that you don’t like it when people are late. But you don’t have the right to say they’ve done it deliberately unless you have proof they have. Anything else is patently unfair. Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/535 "2007-02-11T11:17:06Z")
[QUOTE=StarvingButStrong] Do you send out individual announcements about the meeting to each person, and give each person a personalized start time, based on your best estimate of how late each one usually is? And hope no one ever compares notes so Ms. Always A Half Hour Late and Mr. Strolls in Ten Minutes Late and Mrs. Right On The Dot don’t realize that you are lying to two of them? [/QUOTE] Of _course_ she does. :rolleyes: That’s how we keep the wheels turning. By dropping everything an kissing some obnoxious attention whore’s ass. It works. Really. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/536 "2007-02-11T12:06:27Z")
[QUOTE=Hilarity N. Suze] Lawyer? Why I put my _kids_ before my _boss?_ Good god, man, chill. Get a grip. I think you’re way too type A. [/QUOTE] Which would make you what? Type X? Type Beyond-Z? You weren’t claiming, as far as I could tell, that you couldn’t arrive at work at 9 because you have small kids who need to be prepared for school by you. That’s a reasonable claim, one made by many single mothers who find a way to find careers that accomodate their reasonable needs. What you were claiming was that, before the magical hour of 9, you were disorganized and a danger to society, and so needed to be excused from work before that magical hour. Nothing about kids, etc. But if it’s your kids who need your attention (so they don’t bring iodine sandwiches to school, or aren’t dressed in gender-inappropriate outfits, etc), don’t you need to be the least bit competent in discharging your motherly duties? Isn’t there a grave danger in exposing them to a person at the precise hour of her admitted total lack of competance at any task requiring brain activity higher than that of a warthog? Get your story straight, sister. Or if you prefer: What part are you leaving out of your story about your written employee’s handbook supposedly protecting you from the harassment you supposedly received from your employer? If you were mistreated in any way by being asked to arrive at work earlier than the wide range of hours that you claim your handbook spells out, you have a wonderful case for a wrongful termination lawsuit. But obviously you have no case at all, so something’s missing from your story. I’m asking what that is. You don’t need the money? You disapprove of lawsuits? You feel sorry for your ex-employer? I’m just asking for clarification. What I’m getting is obsfuscation. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/537 "2007-02-11T13:47:16Z")
[QUOTE=Quiddity Glomfuster] I said, **specifically, in so many words** , that LATENESS WAS **NOT** HIS PROBLEM. How exactly, do you folks manage to read something and completely miss what was said??? I’ll discuss with people who at least manage to read the words I’ve typed here but this is ridiculous. [/QUOTE] Ah. Missed the part where you said lateness was not a problem with his ADD. So I guess everyone with ADD is not tardy. The only thing that I see as rediculous is that some people don’t believe lateness is damaging or destructive. (well that not the only rediculous thing in this thread, but tops out the list for me). Still, you did not answer the question. Or was that bold NO in tread 526 an answer to this- > [@enipla](#): > > Would you agree that someone that is habitually late can cause troubles for those that wait for them? Yes or No. If we can get beyond this simple question, we can continue. > > Yes, or No. ---
**Author:** ![Kalhoun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/3bc359/32.png) [@Kalhoun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalhoun)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/538 "2007-02-11T14:26:04Z")
It’s Puntual Guy’s problem, remember? ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/539 "2007-02-11T14:38:59Z")
[QUOTE=enipla] Ah. Missed the part where you said lateness was not a problem with his ADD. So I guess everyone with ADD is not tardy. The only thing that I see as rediculous is that some people don’t believe lateness is damaging or destructive. (well that not the only rediculous thing in this thread, but tops out the list for me). Still, you did not answer the question. Or was that bold NO in tread 526 an answer to this- [/QUOTE] Already did. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2007, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553/540 "2007-02-11T14:45:26Z")
[QUOTE=Heffalump and Roo] [url=[http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8241866&postcount=320](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=8241866&postcount=320)] \*this is not a typo. This is **QG** quoted back to her own comments from this same thread. Maybe it will go into an endless feedback loop. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: Let’s not be inane. I used a hypothetical to illustrate a MATHEMATICAL point. Cripes almighty. Someone said 4% was ‘miniscule’. I said it was not and that .00009 would be ‘miniscule.’ I’m shocked, now, at how supposedly intelligent people can so completely misread plain English. I could never be a teacher for the challenged because it seems I am unable to convey to supposedly non-challenged people that I was discussing the meaning of the word ‘miniscule’ there and not the number of people with ADD. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553.md?page=26) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-punctuality-a-choice/390553.md?page=28)