# Is Quantum Physics Proof of God? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 10, 2021, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490 "2021-09-10T21:47:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2021, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490/61 "2021-09-14T21:39:31Z")
Is there any evidence that Gödel, who as we know _did_ understand logic, viewed his derivation as more than what I glibly called a logic puzzle? He himself never published it, for one thing. As for “positive” qualities, it is not that the proof is silent about them; on the contrary, some pretty bold claims are made, like that if a property is “positive” then it is necessary that it be “positive”. (Well, maybe indeed, if you think about it!) And so on. Is this sound reasoning? That is up for discussion, of course. Back to quantum mechanics, the [axiomatic approach](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wightman_axioms) is not so easy either: > [@](#): > > Currently, there is no proof that the Wightman axioms can be satisfied for interacting theories in dimension 4. In particular, the Standard model of particle physics has no mathematically rigorous foundations. There is a million dollar prize for a proof that the Wightman axioms can be satisfied for gauge theories, with the additional requirement of a mass gap. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2021, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490/62 "2021-09-14T22:24:22Z")
Speaking of religions and science coëxisting, I felt obligated to include [This](https://www.wired.com/story/psychologists-religion-how-god-works/). Yeah, this article says science should admire religion, because religion can make you more moral. I thought science was neutral towards moral progress? 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2021, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490/63 "2021-09-14T22:38:36Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > Yeah, this article says science should admire religion, because religion can make you more moral. > > I thought science was neutral towards moral progress? And, Steven Weinberg said, “With or without religion, you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” Some sciences are neutral towards moral progress and others aren’t. So what? What does any of that have to do with your OP? Did you mean to start a new thread or something? \ ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2021, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490/64 "2021-09-14T22:46:22Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > As for “positive” qualities, it is not that the proof is silent about them; on the contrary, some pretty bold claims are made, like that if a property is “positive” then it is necessary that it be “positive”. (Well, maybe indeed, if you think about it!) And so on. Is this sound reasoning? That is up for discussion, of course. I’ll have to look at the proof more closely. I thought that it mostly followed Descartes’ model, but I may have been wrong. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2021, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490/65 "2021-09-14T22:53:13Z")
> [@DPRK's logic book](#): > > I wish to prove to you that there exists a unicorn. To do this, it obviously suffices to prove the (possibly) stronger state­ment that there exists an existing unicorn. (By an existing unicorn I of course mean a unicorn which exists.) Surely if there exists an existing unicorn, then there must exist a unicorn. So all I have to do is prove that an existing unicorn exists. Well, there are exactly two possibilities: > > (1) An existing unicorn exists. > (2) An existing unicorn does not exist. > > Possibility (2) is clearly contradictory: How could an exist­ing unicorn not exist? Just as it is true that a blue unicorn is necessarily blue, an existing unicorn must necessarily be existing. The problem with the above (and Anselm’s proof and Gödel’s proof) is that existence is being treated as a predicate. It’s not and that’s exactly why no one outside of a first year philosophy class has paid any attention to ontological arguments since Kant pointed this out over 200 years ago. > [@Kant's Critique of Pure Reason](#): > > [Being is evidently not a real predicate](https://philosophy.lander.edu/intro/introbook2.1/x3527.html), that is, a conception of something which is added to the conception of some other thing. It is merely the positing of a thing, or of certain determinations in it. Logically, it is merely the copula of a judgement. The proposition, God is omnipotent, contains two conceptions, which have a certain object or content; the word is, is no additional predicate—it merely indicates the relation of the predicate to the subject. Now, if I take the subject (God) with all its predicates (omnipotence being one), and say: God is, or, There is a God, I add no new predicate to the conception of God, I merely posit or affirm the existence of the subject with all its predicates—I posit the object in relation to my conception. The content of both is the same; and there is no addition made to the conception, which expresses merely the possibility of the object, by my cogitating the object—in the expression, it is—as absolutely given or existing. Thus the real contains no more than the possible. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2021, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490/66 "2021-09-14T23:15:25Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > exactly why no one outside of a first year philosophy class has paid any attention to ontological arguments since Kant pointed this out over 200 years ago. I’m pretty sure this is not true. ---
**Author:** ![74westy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/74westy/32/3950_2.png) [@74westy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/74westy)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2021, 11:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490/67 "2021-09-14T23:42:44Z")
True. I should have said anyone beyond first year. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490/68 "2021-09-15T02:00:36Z")
> [@74westy](#): > > > [@DPRK's logic book](#): > > > > > (1) An existing unicorn exists. > > > (2) An existing unicorn does not exist. > > > > > > Possibility (2) is clearly contradictory: How could an exist­ing unicorn not exist? Just as it is true that a blue unicorn is necessarily blue, an existing unicorn must necessarily be existing. > > The problem with the above (and Anselm’s proof and Gödel’s proof) is that existence is being treated as a predicate A simpler demonstration of the falsity of the proof is that possibility (2) is _not_ clearly contradictory. It is merely wordplay that makes it seems so. The “existing” in “existing unicorn” is a reference to a property that a certain sort of unicorn might have. The word “exist” in possibility (2) is instead a reference to whether there are any of that sort of unicorn. It is mere prevarication on “exist/ing” that is making possibility (2) seem contradictory. As can be easily demonstrated simply by using different words: (1) The proposition that there are existing unicorns is true (2) The proposition that there are existing unicorns is false These are the same two propositions. But it is now obvious that (2) cannot be ruled out by logic. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490/69 "2021-09-15T02:03:47Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > I thought science was neutral towards moral progress? Science is. The article was taken from a book by a professor of psychology. You can no more take that as a representation of what “science” thinks than you can a post here on the Dope. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490/70 "2021-09-15T03:16:11Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > Yeah, this article says science should admire religion, because religion can make you more moral. A very large percent of humanity’s moral progress has come from defying religion, not embracing it. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490/71 "2021-09-15T04:49:35Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > As for “positive” qualities, it is not that the proof is silent about them; on the contrary, some pretty bold claims are made, like that if a property is “positive” then it is necessary that it be “positive”. (Well, maybe indeed, if you think about it!) And so on. Is this sound reasoning? That is up for discussion, of course. NB also worth pointing out is that G. also posits that if φ is not a positive quality, then its negation _is_, which is IMO way beyond the bounds of credibility in this context. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490/72 "2021-09-15T05:19:53Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Making empirical claims based _only_ on logic has failed over and over again. The argument, like any other, derives consequences from premises (not from ‘only logic’, whatever that might be supposed to mean)—it’s how every empirical claim is arrived at (not that the existence of god is necessarily an empirical claim); there’s nothing special about it in that regard. It stands on the same footing as any other, and must prove its mettle in the same way. > [@Mijin](#): > > So, I’ll say right now: even if I saw an ontological proof that seemed absolutely sound to me, I would still ignore the conclusion. Just as if I saw a magic trick that I couldn’t explain I wouldn’t conclude that magic is real. That’s probably not a bad attitude to adopt, although I’d want to reserve some possibility for being convinced of even remote conclusions, just as a basic opinion hygiene strategy. But I’d probably rather take such an argument, if it seemed valid to me, to be a reductio of its premises, than greatly increase my confidence in the existence of any sort of deity. And that’s just the thing—there’s plenty of good reasons to reject ontological arguments; we don’t have to make up bad ones, like insinuating the argument does something inherently illicit, or that formal logic somehow isn’t applicable to the issue, or anything like that. It’s just some bit of reasoning, completely ordinary reasoning, working just like any other argument, and subject to the same ways of being rejected. There’s no need for special pleading: it just happens to be wrong, that’s all. Everything else is making it into a far bigger issue than it is. > [@DPRK](#): > > Is there any evidence that Gödel, who as we know _did_ understand logic, viewed his derivation as more than what I glibly called a logic puzzle? He himself never published it, for one thing. I remember reading that he was ‘satisfied’ with it, but can’t quickly dredge up the reference. But Gödel was a self described [theist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_G%C3%B6del#Religious_views), for whatever that’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490/73 "2021-09-15T07:39:11Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > I remember reading that he was ‘satisfied’ with it, but can’t quickly dredge up the reference. But Gödel was a self described [theist](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kurt_G%C3%B6del#Religious_views), for whatever that’s worth. He was a smart guy, but human. By which I mean - he would have kicked his own argument to the kerb if it hadn’t been for the blind spot created by his strong preconceptions. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490/74 "2021-09-15T10:15:53Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > By which I mean - he would have kicked his own argument to the kerb if it hadn’t been for the blind spot created by his strong preconceptions. Perhaps. Or, you only think so because of the blind spot created by your strong preconceptions. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 12:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490/75 "2021-09-15T12:21:32Z")
As others have said, no one past first year philosophy thinks its an argument worth a damn. It’s just plain wrong and obviously so. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490/76 "2021-09-15T12:40:02Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Making empirical claims based _only_ on logic has failed over and over again. If you could prove, using only logic, that something _cannot_ exist or cannot be true because its existence would lead to a logical contradiction, would that be an empirical claim based only on logic? ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490/77 "2021-09-15T13:46:42Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > If you could prove, using only logic, that something _cannot_ exist or cannot be true because its existence would lead to a logical contradiction, would that be an empirical claim based only on logic? Right. Any kind of empirical claim is always going to be based on other empirical claims or observations. Which can be wrong, flawed or just narrowly-focused. For instance: P1: Waves are oscillations of some medium P2: Light is a wave C: Therefore, light is an oscillation of some medium This _rightly_ seemed sound to scientists at one time. However, they didn’t consider this a logical _proof_. Merely an inference from a model, and went out to make and test various predictions. Consequently we updated our knowledge to understand that _not all_ waves are oscillations of a medium. This is good science. and the reason we don’t make absolute empirical claims based only on logical arguments. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490/78 "2021-09-15T15:21:35Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > As others have said, no one past first year philosophy thinks its an argument worth a damn. It’s just plain wrong and obviously so. Not to defend the ontological argument, but it’d be rather odd if something nobody past first year philosophy thought worth a damn had a 10,000+ words entry at the [Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy](https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/ontological-arguments/). Also, just casually glancing at the reference from that article, there’s [this recent defense](https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/rethinking-the-ontological-argument/4768A3E10201DB876ACCD1830852FA54), [this dedicated volume](https://www.cambridge.org/core/books/ontological-arguments/25E61EB19A20B0E060C5E77BEC8D9353), this [overview of the current state of debate](https://catalog.princeton.edu/catalog/9973092493506421), and lots more current literature on the subject. But then, what do I know, I never even took first year philosophy. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2021, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490/79 "2021-09-15T18:47:37Z")
> [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](#): > > I never even took first year philosophy. I did, and thought Anselm’s argument was ridiculous nonsense the first time I heard it. He was obviously defining God into existence, and it baffled me why a college course spent so much time discussing it as if it were an interesting concept. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2021, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490/80 "2021-09-16T00:36:56Z")
Sniff, sniff. Can you smell that? It’s the smell of _desperation_. You could as easily say there must be a deity because there is heaps of religious writing. Religious people really _really_ want to fight off the cognitive dissonance that comes from believing in something that a little naughty thought at the back of their minds tells them is about as believable as Santa Claus. Especially if they are otherwise logical people. So they dedicate time and energy (ie the words to which you refer) to coming up with ways to keep that naughty little thought at bay. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-quantum-physics-proof-of-god/950490.md?page=5)