# Is race something that is subject to self-identification? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [June 16, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677 "2015-06-16T16:08:33Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677/41 "2015-06-16T20:40:02Z")
Rachel Dolezal shared a story about her husband insisting that she live as a white woman, which doesn’t seem all that unreasonable now. What would the people who voted yes do in her family’s position? Would you participate in discussions that asked for comments from people in interracial relationships or parents of a \_\_\_ child? Would you teach your children that they were biracial? ---
**Author:** ![mind\_the\_gap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ea666f/32.png) [@mind\_the\_gap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mind_the_gap)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677/42 "2015-06-16T20:53:37Z")
I can’t condemn her for her stance and I can’t praise her either. I look for the relative harm done and don’t see much, except for the theoretical. She seemed to be living a decent life, trying to end injustice. Now she’s well and truly screwed. I also think of the late great Johnny Otis. White guy who identified as black, spent his whole life in the black culture and did huge things to further black music. Never heard of him getting grief for his identification, though I don’t know as how he went around “claiming” to be black. He just made his choice as to what race he wanted to be associated with and that was that. ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677/43 "2015-06-16T21:04:09Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > To paraphrase an old joke… “To you, you’re a black woman. To me, you’re a black woman. But to a black woman, are you a black woman?” Do you have to be a black woman to get what the heck all those black women are about? ---
**Author:** ![Lowdown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Lowdown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lowdown)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677/44 "2015-06-16T21:23:03Z")
You don’t get to pick whatever the hell race you want to be. You are what you are. The entire concept is ridiculous. Imagine Djimon Hounsou telling you he’s a white guy. It’s absurd. Mom + Dad = You. That’s pretty much it. Now, if you’re Mowgli you can explain how you were raised by wolves and feel like you have more in common with them, but at the end of the day you’re still Mom + Dad. It’s really not negotiable. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677/45 "2015-06-16T21:30:35Z")
> [@Lowdown](#): > > You don’t get to pick whatever the hell race you want to be. You are what you are. The entire concept is ridiculous. Imagine Djimon Hounsou telling you he’s a white guy. It’s absurd. Mom + Dad = You. That’s pretty much it. > > Now, if you’re Mowgli you can explain how you were raised by wolves and feel like you have more in common with them, but at the end of the day you’re still Mom + Dad. It’s really not negotiable. So what race is Tiger Woods? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677/46 "2015-06-16T21:31:37Z")
I would say it’s a one-way street: you can not self-identify as something you are, but you can’t legitimately self-identify as something you’re not. Having a “Does it matter?” view of your own ethnicity is fine, or identifying with some part of your ancestry over the others, but claiming you’re an African-American when you aren’t makes you either a liar or an idiot. ---
**Author:** ![moojja](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e5b9ba/32.png) [@moojja](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moojja)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677/47 "2015-06-16T21:34:17Z")
> [@Lowdown](#): > > You don’t get to pick whatever the hell race you want to be. You are what you are. The entire concept is ridiculous. Imagine Djimon Hounsou telling you he’s a white guy. It’s absurd. Mom + Dad = You. That’s pretty much it. > > Now, if you’re Mowgli you can explain how you were raised by wolves and feel like you have more in common with them, but at the end of the day you’re still Mom + Dad. It’s really not negotiable. You said that as if races can’t mix. What If Mom is black and Dad is white, then how are you suppose to pick, gray? Tiger Woods is a good example and so is Keanu Reeves. ---
**Author:** ![Lowdown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Lowdown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lowdown)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677/48 "2015-06-16T21:43:52Z")
I don’t see how this is complicated? If Mom is black and Dad is white, then you’re half black half white. Why would you pick one or the other? It’s not accurate. Edited to add: I think Tiger describes himself as being a mix. ---
**Author:** ![CerebrAl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@CerebrAl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CerebrAl)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677/49 "2015-06-16T21:49:03Z")
I’m starting to think that the term “Self identify” is the seed for racism. Once you identify yourself as a (insert race here) \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. You then assume what it means to be a \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. You start hearing the stereotypes and the assumptions you feel you have to unfairly overcome. Then comes the resentment…anger… This is how it starts… I prefer to see myself as an: [ul] [li] honest person,[/li][li]a hard worker,[/li][li]a good parent,[/li][li]an educated individual[/li][/ul] Way, way down the list, after Philosophy, religion, politics… one may want to include race. I’m not sure why race is important. I suppose one could surmise certain relevant characteristics associated with same. It’s a pigeon hole, like politics. The only thing I can say for sure about Rachel Dolezal is: she can’t be trusted because she is a liar. Nobody likes a liar. She most likely resigned because she was discovered, then embarrassed… and even she doesn’t like liar. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677/50 "2015-06-16T21:57:24Z")
There are two questions here. The first question is what, according to the current rules, makes a person a given race? There is a range of races people will believe about a given person, which will be wider or smaller depending on different things (what race your parents are, how your community draws the lines, the influence of race-like categories like Latino, etc.) From this, you get to choose. But you’ll likely be expected to back it up to some degree if it’s ambiguous and you are taking a side. The other question is what race a person is objectively. This has no answer, since race is just something people made up as a way to categorize people, and doesn’t map on to anything objective. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677/51 "2015-06-16T22:25:14Z")
> [@Little\_Nemo](#): > > Like John said, it’s complicated. > > Suppose it had been Jennifer Beals instead of Rachel Dolezal who had been involved in this situation in Spokane. Beals is generally considered [white](http://static.communitytable.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/02/jennifer-beals-minds-her-body-ftr.jpg). But she is biracial; her mother is white and her father was black. So despite her appearance, I don’t think anyone would object very strongly if Beals had chosen to identify herself as black. I think she’s generally considered black or mixed race – her “passing” in Flashdance was certainly a topic of conversation back in the day. IMO, someone can call themselves any of the races they actually are, but to make one up doesn’t make a lot of sense to me. ---
**Author:** ![Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellis_Aponte_Jr)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677/52 "2015-06-16T22:35:34Z")
> [@CerebrAl](#): > > Once you identify yourself as a (insert race here) \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. You then assume what it means to be a \_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_\_. You start hearing the stereotypes and the assumptions you feel you have to unfairly overcome This is true, but think of how much worse it can be when someone else chooses your race for you. From then on you’re expected to conform to the stereotypes and assumptions about that race, even if you don’t identify with it ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677/53 "2015-06-16T22:43:09Z")
I picked Yes. I’m not comfortable with saying that what Ms. Dolezal has done is OK. But I think in many ways, race is a social construct, and I’m not comfortable with a world in which how _you_ see yourself and the society in which you were raised don’t matter as long as we can see your skin color for ourselves. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677/54 "2015-06-16T23:36:56Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > I would say it’s a one-way street: you can not self-identify as something you are, but you can’t legitimately self-identify as something you’re not. Having a “Does it matter?” view of your own ethnicity is fine, or identifying with some part of your ancestry over the others, but claiming you’re an African-American when you aren’t makes you either a liar or an idiot. Good point. I typically do not “self-identify” as German-American unless I’m trying to make an example or something. More of my ancestry is Irish than German, I don’t speak more than a few words of German, and I don’t follow the cultural trends in Pennsylvania Dutch Country. Could I change my mind later? Yes, I think so. But there’s an important thing here - very few people really care who is or who is not German-American, and there are almost no benefits that one can gain or lose based on being or not being German-American. There’s no “DeutschesKarte” that I can apply for and then wave to get a 10% discount at HersheyPark or something. Whether one is, or is not, Black actually _is_ a Big Deal ™ and quite a lot can be riding on what box gets checked, so it receives that much more attention. FWIW, I know an African-American guy who self-identifies as Scottish. I don’t doubt that he does have some Scottish ancestry in his family tree as there has been a lot of white admixture here, but I’m not sure how welcome he would feel at next year’s Highland Games and whatnot. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677/55 "2015-06-17T00:02:43Z")
> [@Eureka](#): > > I picked Yes. > > I’m not comfortable with saying that what Ms. Dolezal has done is OK. But I think in many ways, race is a social construct, and I’m not comfortable with a world in which how _you_ see yourself and the society in which you were raised don’t matter as long as we can see your skin color for ourselves. Isn’t “social” the key word in “social construct”? If we lacked a coherent set of rules and conceptions about who does and does not “belong” to a particularly racial category, then we could say that race does not exist. But we do have a coherent set of rules, as evidenced by historical and current pattens of racial discrimination. The rules may change going forward, but I don’t think we’ll ever get to the point where the rules won’t exist at all. Even in highly interracial societies like Brazil, the rules exist. I think **Grumman** said it best. Self-identity only works for people who are on the edges of the coherent rules. If you can’t check any of the socially accepted boxes, then you can self-identify all you want, but chances are you won’t be taken seriously. Rachel can’t check any of the socially accepted boxes of blackness. She was not raised by black people. She was not raised to see herself as black. She has lived a good portion of her life identifying as a white person. All of her tales of racial victimization have been found to either be exaggerated or created out of wholecloth. She does not look black. It just seems like performance art for her, rather than a genuine way of being. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677/56 "2015-06-17T00:30:00Z")
> [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](#): > > If race can’t be self-identified then who does get to identify it? Does it come up for a vote? In practice society decides. I have more black ancestry than the chick on the news does - one of my great-great-grandfathers was black - but people would laugh themselves silly if I insisted that my milk-white, red-haired, blue-eyed self was black. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677/57 "2015-06-17T01:18:53Z")
In Aus, you qualify for positive discrimination if you self-identify as Aboriginal, \* and \* you have links with an Aboriginal Community. This is partly because the Aboriginal Communities often identify “culture” as the most important part of their identity, rather than genetics. > [@](#): > > An Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander is a person of Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander descent who identifies as an Aboriginal or Torres Strait Islander and is accepted as such by the community in which he [or she] lives. Often, only the self identification is required, the other parts are taken on trust. Sometimes this is abused, sometimes it becomes a political question. In Aus, Aboriginal descent is sometimes not clear, for a number of reasons. (1) Who knows their great-grandparents? (2)Who has ancesters who hid their race? (2)Who has brown skin, curly hair, doesn’t know their grandparents, feels alieniated from society, and later finds out their family came from Malta? (4) Who has a negro ancester who self-identified with the local black community? (5)Aboriginal skin color is a recessive trait: mixed race couples have fairly white kids. If follows that “descent” is known by community, or self-asserted. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677/58 "2015-06-17T01:33:49Z")
> [@robert\_columbia](#): > > FWIW, I know an African-American guy who self-identifies as Scottish. I don’t doubt that he does have some Scottish ancestry in his family tree as there has been a lot of white admixture here, but I’m not sure how welcome he would feel at next year’s Highland Games and whatnot. Why _wouldn’t_ he be welcome? People might roll their eyes at the abbreviation of “Scottish-American” to “Scottish”, but there’s no reason why he wouldn’t be as welcome as everybody else. After all, Scottish-American is itself an abbreviation of “American of mostly-Scottish ancestry _or_ whose lastname happens to be Scottish _or_ who has a Scottish lastname as a middle name as is traditional in his family”. I’ve encountered groups of kilted folks heading to or coming from the Highland Games and similar events, looking about as typically Scottish as a dish of paella or falafel and speaking Spanish, Italian and a language I couldn’t identify. Judging by how happy the ones on the way back looked, it seemed as if they’d found it a good experience. ---
**Author:** ![robert\_columbia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@robert\_columbia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robert_columbia)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677/59 "2015-06-17T01:51:27Z")
> [@Melbourne](#): > > In Aus, you qualify for positive discrimination if you self-identify as Aboriginal, \* and \* you have links with an Aboriginal Community. > > This is partly because the Aboriginal Communities often identify “culture” as the most important part of their identity, rather than genetics. > > Often, only the self identification is required, the other parts are taken on trust. Sometimes this is abused…In Aus, Aboriginal descent is sometimes not clear, for a number of reasons…If follows that “descent” is known by community, or self-asserted. Is it possible to be adopted or inducted into an Aboriginal community by e.g. learning their language, adopting their cultural practices, marrying a member of the community, and/or performing a significant service for the community? E.g. you fund a renovation of the local tribal school, spend five years teaching computer skills so people can go to the city to make money to send home, pass comprehensive examinations in the local language, culture, and lore, marry the Chief’s daughter, then you can undergo the Rite of Ooo’hhaa’ving’quk’x and receive your Aboriginal name. IIRC, it is theoretically possible to be inducted into a Native American tribe of the US as an outsider as long as you sufficiently impress the chief that you would be a valued member of the community, but it is not often done anymore because of the significant economic benefits that often come with tribal membership (e.g. a share in casino money, preferential hiring, etc.) that would likely lead to mass abuse of the program, with people feigning an interest in tribal culture just to get that casino check. You can’t just show up and apply in the same way that you could, say, apply to become a Freemason or something by showing up at the lodge one day and asking. ---
**Author:** ![CerebrAl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@CerebrAl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CerebrAl)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2015, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677/60 "2015-06-17T03:00:33Z")
> [@Ellis\_Aponte\_Jr](#): > > This is true, but think of how much worse it can be when someone else chooses your race for you. From then on you’re expected to conform to the stereotypes and assumptions about that race, even if you don’t identify with it OK I’ve thought about it\*, even though I can’t see the relevance\* and it occurs to me that those assumptions and expectations are there…regardless of your race. Ignorant people abound. They come in all shapes, colors, and genders. Expectations is what we do…first impressions mean everything …right? How is it that a shapely, attractive woman can get treated one way, where an overweight, ugly woman is treated completely different given the same circumstances? That’s just life. That’s how it is. Some people won’t like you no matter what you do. They don’t need a reason either. You can never tell what someone may be thinking…so it doesn’t matter… We have instinctively learned to try and understand or predict the future based on what we have learned from the past. We do it with people all the time. If you have had a string of bad experiences with people who wear green tee shirts. Your going to avoid people with green tee shirts, or at the very least be less receptive. You will pre-judge the next person wearing the green shirt. That’s fine…your prerogative…no? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-race-something-that-is-subject-to-self-identification/722677.md?page=4)