# Is racism preventing us from effectively addressing gun violence? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 20, 2016, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899 "2016-06-20T17:12:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899/41 "2016-06-20T20:44:03Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > **dracoi** : > > I agree with that, but I feel the same way about that as I do explanation that point to class, which is that I think they are inextricably tied to race. If you trace the origins of the “tough on crime” rhetoric you mention, they get pretty racist. > > By contrast, when we have a white drug epidemic like the current opiate epidemic, what you see is skyrocketing support for expensive medical intervention, needle exchange, and criminal justice alternatives. > > So I think it’s really hard to disentangle race from the attitude you cite. But I agree that a lack of evidence-based policymaking in criminal justice is a huge problem, and it is separate from (even if intertwined with) racism. It’s hard to separate the two at this point, for sure. I feel like people are more consistently pro-punishment than they are consistently racist. Even in the current Stanford rape case, I haven’t seen anyone argue that maybe poor black kids should get lighter sentences too. It’s taken for granted that the goal is to make sure everyone gets long sentences. But regardless of the specific cause, it’s a sad thing that something like Ceasefire is going to get little traction because so few people will stop to look at evidence before they make up their minds. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899/42 "2016-06-20T22:55:04Z")
If you have people more worked up about a few sensational acts than about many obscure ones, I don’t think you need to look to racism as an explanation. It’s human nature. (People were pretty worked up about the church shooting too, even though it involved black victims.) As to solutions, ISTM that banning these types of mass-murder-capable assault weapons might reduce relatively few murders, but the cost-benefit might still be more favorable than creating vast new social programs in an effort to reduce even more murders. (This is in addition to the moral hazard aspect, as others have noted earlier.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899/43 "2016-06-20T23:05:24Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > The Black Lives Matter movement seems to care 10 times more about incidents where white people kill black people than incidents where black people kill black people. BLM is about **cops** killing black people. Different issue than street crime, which is what the OP is about. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899/44 "2016-06-20T23:23:52Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > As to solutions, ISTM that banning these types of mass-murder-capable assault weapons might reduce relatively few murders … You don’t need “mass-murder-capable assault weapons” to carry out a massacre. The Virginia Tech shooter, up until a couple of weeks ago the most “successful” active shooter in American history, used a Walther P22 and a Glock 19, utterly mundane pistols. The Luby’s shooter used a Glock and a Ruger pistol. The choice of weapon seems to not have much correlation to the body count. ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2016, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899/45 "2016-06-20T23:28:06Z")
There are exceptions to everything and there aren’t enough mass shootings to easily make the correlation. It’s hard to imagine that these types of weapons don’t make it easier to run up the body count. But either way, that’s not what’s important to the question raised in this thread. What’s important here is that at first glance _it seems_ that it would make a big difference. So when you’re looking for reasons for why these proposals are more frequently raised than the alternatives being proffered here, you don’t need to look further than that. ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899/46 "2016-06-21T01:51:09Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > This seems quite contradictory to me. Are you saying that white people are literally unaware of the black murder victims? If not, aren’t you saying they don’t care about those victims because they are not white? Not unaware, but very remote and abstract, and probably not really racist at all when it comes right down to it. I mean, if most black murder victims are in places like inner-city Baltimore, that may as well be on another continent to a rural white Coloradoan, or PNW city-dweller. No common frame of reference at all. It’s kind of like when I imagine people living in the slums of Manila scrounging for batteries to recycle. It’s so far removed from my normal existence as to be fantasy, even though intellectually I know it’s actually a real situation that people live in. So when push comes to shove, and that guy from Colorado is being asked to give up his guns because of gun violence in inner-city Baltimore, to him it seems like a totally insane thing to ask him to do. Similarly, I’d be willing to bet that farm subsidies and rural aid seem just as strange and fantastic to that black guy living in the ghetto in Baltimore. People seem to forget that the black population is something less than 25% the white population, and is primarily concentrated in the big cities and parts of the Deep South. There are huge swathes of the country with very little contact with actual live black people, so things that affect them seem distant and unreal to those huge swathes of white people. But when the pro and con gun arguments speak as if there’s NOT a big differential both in race population, and in gun violence deaths, and treats it as neutral, it tends to cloud the issues in people’s minds. People think “Huh… nobody _I_ know has ever been shot, and everybody has a shitload of guns. Must be something fucked up that people elsewhere are doing.” Or they assume that nobody cares about the gun violence issue because a whole lot of people they know _do_ get shot and nothing’s being done. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899/47 "2016-06-21T01:57:10Z")
I appreciate the longer explanation. I’m not quite sure I buy it, but I’m mulling it over. Lots of rural areas have few black people, but they also have few people period. The cities with major gun violence problems also have tons of white people. I think it’s hard to argue that the deaths of people in the place you live feel too remote, unless that remoteness is at least partially a function of racism–feeling less empathy for people who don’t look like you. Part of the problem might be definitional. Some people reserve the word “racism” for stuff like the KKK. They wouldn’t apply it to, say, the tendency of Americans of all races to overestimate the age of young black men. But, in my view, if some idea or conduct has its origin in white supremacy, then it is fair to call it racism or an effect of racism, even when it’s not an indictment of someone’s conscious bigotry. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899/48 "2016-06-21T02:38:59Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Part of the problem might be definitional. Some people reserve the word “racism” for stuff like the KKK. They wouldn’t apply it to, say, the tendency of Americans of all races to overestimate the age of young black men. But, in my view, if some idea or conduct has its origin in white supremacy, then it is fair to call it racism or an effect of racism, even when it’s not an indictment of someone’s conscious bigotry. I’m one of those people that don’t apply the term “racism” broadly. I think it weakens actual charges of racism and desensitizes the accusation. Casual accusations of racism do real damage when it comes to seeking justice for actual racism. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899/49 "2016-06-21T02:51:19Z")
I think that’s demonstrably wrong, but fodder for another thread. For the purposes of this thread, if an idea or state of affairs or implicit bias has its origin in white supremacy, then I would count that as racism in trying to assess the reason we don’t discuss policies like Operation Ceasefire. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899/50 "2016-06-21T03:15:34Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I’m one of those people that don’t apply the term “racism” broadly. I think it weakens actual charges of racism and desensitizes the accusation. Casual accusations of racism do real damage when it comes to seeking justice for actual racism. This is an excellent point and should be made more often. I think the issue in the OP is more “clueless” and “not on the media radar” than racism. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899/51 "2016-06-21T03:17:40Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > For the purposes of this thread, if an idea or state of affairs or implicit bias has its origin in white supremacy, … Like the Magna Carta, The Declaration of Independence. The Constitution, The Rights Of Man…:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899/52 "2016-06-21T04:11:39Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I think that’s demonstrably wrong, but fodder for another thread. > > For the purposes of this thread, if an idea or state of affairs or implicit bias has its origin in white supremacy, then I would count that as racism in trying to assess the reason we don’t discuss policies like Operation Ceasefire. OK. If that’s the working definition then I agree with your premise that racism is involved in the lack of push for programs like ceasefire. That definition is very broad and other things like police arrest rates, age perception, education funding, housing programs, college acceptance rates, hiring practices, etc. are all racist and I don’t think that’s informative or instructive. When everything is racist then nothing is racist in a meaningful way. I think of it more like a spectrum where there is bias, prejudice, bigotry, and racism and those are in order of increasing severity. I think everyone has there own biases which are influenced by their own life experience and it’s not necessarily a bad thing to be biased. But if being biased is conflated with racism then there can be no conversation about bias because the nuke of racism is out there. Anyways - that’s all just my opinion and I’ll not continue this hijack. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899/53 "2016-06-21T13:41:26Z")
> [@Richard Parker](#): > > For the purposes of this thread, if an idea or state of affairs or implicit bias has its origin in white supremacy, then I would count that as racism in trying to assess the reason we don’t discuss policies like Operation Ceasefire. Whatever resistance there is to implementing Operation Ceasefire does not have its origin in white supremacy. It has its origin in the fact that the kind of inner city violence Operation Ceasefire is supposed to address has very little impact on me or my family or my friends or my neighborhood or my workplace or any of the circumstances under which I spend almost all my life. The only impact it has is very indirect. Yes, it is a terrible tragedy when black people shoot each other. And maybe we should target inner city black kids for special attention, consisting of social services support if they want to get out of gang life, and prison if they don’t. But if we do that, and it turns out that some of the targeted black kids end up in prison, or get shot by the police when they don’t get out of gang life, then BLM and groups like it will have to shut the fuck up. If Operation Ceasefire works because it offers a stick and a carrot, then let’s not hear any complaints when some of the people being targeted get the stick. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899/54 "2016-06-21T13:59:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Getting an iPad for good grades means the kid has achieved more than would normally be expected of him. (If not, the carrot has been poorly designed.) But there is a base level of performance that should not be rewarded—it should be expected. > > For the record, I find that program well-intoned but morally reprehensible, as well. I was a bit shocked too at first. Then I heard more of the details and it sounded less and less offensive. Then they threw out some recidivism statistics and there was little to no doubt in my mind that society was better off giving a stipend to these guys, who have nothing to lose, an incentive to stay out of trouble. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899/55 "2016-06-21T14:04:11Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Whatever resistance there is to implementing Operation Ceasefire does not have its origin in white supremacy. It has its origin in the fact that the kind of inner city violence Operation Ceasefire is supposed to address has very little impact on me or my family or my friends or my neighborhood or my workplace or any of the circumstances under which I spend almost all my life. The only impact it has is very indirect. Most Americans live in cities–whose budgets, schools, and whole economies are quite significantly affected by gun violence. Especially if you live in a big city like Philadelphia or New York or Atlanta or Los Angeles or Chicago–like tens of millions of Americans–then you cannot say that this “inner city violence” doesn’t affect you. Moreover, lots of pubic policy issues that only touch on a small percentage of Americans get widespread national discussion. My life, and most people’s lives, will never be impacted by Colorado’s fire control policies or housing prices in San Francisco or workplace safety of coal miners in West Virginia. But I could tell you all about the basic policy contours of those issues just from reading the daily news. Maybe all of those issues have some sensational aspect that the annual massacre of young black men does not have, but I’m not sure that doesn’t beg the question. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899/56 "2016-06-21T16:52:57Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > Most Americans live in cities–whose budgets, schools, and whole economies are quite significantly affected by gun violence. Especially if you live in a big city like Philadelphia or New York or Atlanta or Los Angeles or Chicago–like tens of millions of Americans–then you cannot say that this “inner city violence” doesn’t affect you. I said it affected me very indirectly. I am paying for police services and social services already, but that is mostly at the state and local level. Some of my federal taxes go to funding programs like Operation Ceasefire, no doubt. But I was talking mostly about perceived risk to me and my family and co-workers and so forth. If we were able to cut the rate at which inner-city youth shoot each other in half, that will affect my risk of being shot almost not at all, since they are mostly shooting each other. Yes, it would be wonderful if more of them graduated from school and got jobs and participated in society instead of dying or going to prison. But support for programs that allegedly bring that about is going to be based largely on altruism, rather than enlightened self-interest. Because I am not particularly worried about the Crips shooting the Bloods in my neighborhood, because at least they have the courtesy to shoot each other mostly in their neighborhood. And if they decide to start shooting up my neighborhood, they will quickly discover that I and my neighbors also have access to firearms, a certain amount of free time, a lot more money, as well as a much greater chance of a sympathetic ear from the local police and elected officials. To be fair, I am also not overly concerned about being shot by homophobic Muslims, being eaten by alligators, or being grabbed by a gorilla so they have to shoot the beast. YMMV. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899/57 "2016-06-21T17:16:33Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because I am not particularly worried about the Crips shooting the Bloods in my neighborhood, because at least they have the courtesy to shoot each other mostly in their neighborhood. > > And if they decide to start shooting up my neighborhood, they will quickly discover that I and my neighbors also have access to firearms, a certain amount of free time, a lot more money, as well as a much greater chance of a sympathetic ear from the local police and elected officials. I’m not sure what your point was with the second paragraph here. But if the Crips and Bloods ever do decide to start shooting up your neighborhood, I suspect they will make your life very unpleasant despite your and your neighbors’ “_access to firearms, a certain amount of free time, a lot more money, as well as a much greater chance of a sympathetic ear from the local police and elected officials_”. One thing the Crips and Bloods have going for them over you and your neighbors is that as a result of their life circumstances and choices, and their culture and mindset, the risk/rewards ratio of the shoot-em-up lifestyle are much more favorable to them then they are for people like you and your neighbors. [It’s similar to why terrorists can be successful despite taking lopsided casualties as compared to their targets.] ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899/58 "2016-06-21T17:33:59Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > I’m not sure what your point was with the second paragraph here. But if the Crips and Bloods ever do decide to start shooting up your neighborhood, I suspect they will make your life very unpleasant despite your and your neighbors’ “_access to firearms, a certain amount of free time, a lot more money, as well as a much greater chance of a sympathetic ear from the local police and elected officials_”. I am saying that the circumstances that allow gangs to exist in the inner city don’t apply to my neighborhood. None of their friends or relatives live in my neighborhood, the idea of “snitches get stitches” doesn’t apply in my neighborhood, and so forth. We belong, IOW, to a completely different subculture. We tend to get snippy if you don’t clean up after your dog - a drive-by shooting is not going to be better tolerated. Sure they could make things miserable once, or maybe twice. But we are not going to let “outsiders” turn things into the kind of “slow-motion riot” that somebody described the inner city as being. > [@](#): > > One thing the Crips and Bloods have going for them over you and your neighbors is that as a result of their life circumstances and choices, and their culture and mindset, the risk/rewards ratio of the shoot-em-up lifestyle are much more favorable to them then they are for people like you and your neighbors. Not really. I read an article from an economist who examined how much armed robbers earned over their lifetimes, including prison time, and found that they would have made more money working a minimum-wage job. See also Leavitt’s article in _Freakonomics_ on why drug dealers live with their mothers. Because the drug trade is basically a pyramid scheme. > [@](#): > > [It’s similar to why terrorists can be successful despite taking lopsided casualties as compared to their targets.] Terrorism is more “altruistic” than crime, usually, or maybe “idealistic” is a better term. Suicide bombers and guys like the Orlando shooters are acting in furtherance of a larger goal than themselves. Street thugs do seem to be part of a “culture of honor”, but that is somewhat different from sacrificing oneself for a higher ideal. The Mafia did it, sort of, with the law of _omerta_, but that was mostly because it was family-based, at least in large part. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![dracoi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/90db22/32.png) [@dracoi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dracoi)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899/59 "2016-06-21T18:02:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Getting an iPad for good grades means the kid has achieved more than would normally be expected of him. (If not, the carrot has been poorly designed.) But there is a base level of performance that should not be rewarded—it should be expected. > > For the record, I find that program well-intoned but morally reprehensible, as well. See, this is precisely the problem I’m talking about. You’re talking about “should” and I’m sorry to say that the world doesn’t work like it should. You can stand at a door labeled “Pull” and push on it all you like. You can curse out the foolish architect who put it there, blame the half-wit contractors who installed it that way, point to laws about door orientation and go on TV to explain how it’s not your fault that you couldn’t open it. You can even push hard enough on that door that you break it. Or, you can give up on your idea of how it should work and do what actually does work. I don’t think this attitude is primarily driven by racism. It’s just an unwillingness to reconcile “should happen” with “does happen.” ---
**Author:** ![Corry\_El](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecae2f/32.png) [@Corry\_El](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Corry_El)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899/60 "2016-06-21T18:05:53Z")
Murder rates in a basically orderly society (ie where there are police, courts, not a civil war going on) are mainly about social cohesion and trust in the legal system throughout society. Attitudes toward guns tend to follow from that situation, not cause it. The US is a relatively low social cohesion society, to a large degree over race, and trust in the legal system is low among African Americans in particular. Also the perceived need to own guns by whites is driven to a significant degree by the very high crime rate among blacks, which it’s not ‘racism’ for would-be white gun owners to consider, but an unfortunate fact. However more guns do on the whole feed back to cause more gun violence, but if you ignore why people feel they need guns or just tell them ‘too bad, we’ve decided it’s not good for you and that’s that’, you don’t get anywhere. Which is how the gun debate has been going for a long time now. The BLM movement has a grain of validity IMO in that it partly aims to increase black confidence in the police/legal system through reform. The methods and rhetoric are not very productive though. Gun laws are a very limited tool to address serious violence. People who realize that are in a better position to cooperate and compromise over other things about which they don’t agree. I’m not always against gun laws, depends which ones. But it’s clear they have little potential as any kind of ‘cure’. Examples in other countries are of different societies, apples and oranges. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-preventing-us-from-effectively-addressing-gun-violence/757899.md?page=4)