# Is racism really that evil? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 4, 2014, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573 "2014-11-04T03:26:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/61 "2014-11-04T14:03:23Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Which is why society punishes it by pretty much ending your career. So you’re backing off the statement that society treats it as worse than rape and murder? > [@](#): > > Unless you can get someone credible to “vouch” for you, which saved Howard Cosell. No, his very high overall fame and popularity saved his career. He was the best known sportscaster in the US, by far – way more so than anyone is today. After the “little monkey” statement, he just became the best known sportscaster that some people suspect harbors some racist views. > [@](#): > > Quite the ad hoc justice system. Seems like something more out of a mafia movie. Aside from, say, the violence and murders, right? ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/62 "2014-11-04T14:12:19Z")
Yes, racism is really that evil. But not the racism you are thinking of. The racism where a white guy shouts names at a black guys - that’s bad, it’s wrong and it’s stupid but it isn’t evil all by itself IMO. What is evil is the seeping racism where people try to convince everyone that a whole race is bad in some way. The huge efforts some people put into painting a particular group as lazy or as using more than their fair share of resources. The sly hints that a race may be prone to crime or to dishonesty. In a society with a large majority of one race and a small minority of another race, this battle is unfairly fought. The smaller group must come off worse. I, one of the majority, can’t help but form a skewed opinion. That kind of racism is evil. It’s only point is to make a few of the majority feel better about themselves. ---
**Author:** ![Isamu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/7c8e57/32.png) [@Isamu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isamu)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/63 "2014-11-04T14:22:33Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > Racism is a false belief that Race X is superior than Race Y. For anyone who thinks about it for more than a few minutes, that’s obviously not the definition of racism, by any means. It’'s just one aspect - the most talked about, and the most obvious to white people living in the USA, who equate racism with anti-African Americanism. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/64 "2014-11-04T14:32:04Z")
Racism manifested as hate is evil, comparable to religious and ideological hatred. Most wars that weren’t about simple greed can be attributed to hatred based on race, religion, or ideology, and that’s pure evil. Just like the kind of greed that results in killing people so you can take their stuff. But racism manifested as expressing dumb misconceptions with no malice behind it, that’s completely harmless and people overreact to it. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/65 "2014-11-04T14:41:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > But racism manifested as expressing dumb misconceptions with no malice behind it, that’s completely harmless and people overreact to it. Malice isn’t necessary for harm, and in most cases malice isn’t present. Some slave-owners believed that slavery was actually best for black people. They actually thought they were helping black people. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/66 "2014-11-04T15:02:40Z")
Dumb misconceptions like “women can’t do math”? Au contraire. Even if you have no moral or ethical qualms about such statements, they can be economically stupid. Plenty of studies (and even more history) have shown that people are influenced by these sorts of misconceptions - both stated and unstated - during their formative years, that it affects their performance and abilities throughout life. That’s certainly not what we want in a healthy economy. What’s best, economically, is everybody performing up to their abilities, not shackled by artificial limitations based on silly misconceptions they experienced early in life. We also know that a diversity of opinions actually does have a positive impact in business. Defending racism as not necessarily being evil might be justifiable in a purely philosophical sense, if you start with some…interesting assumptions. But around here (US and Western Europe, at any rate), we like making money and creating environments conducive to making money. If only from that standpoint, racism is evil, because it puts artificial limitations on that pursuit. ---
**Author:** ![Krouget](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b38774/32.png) [@Krouget](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Krouget)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/67 "2014-11-04T15:11:22Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > Isn’t it natural for people to care more for people who have more in common with them? People can be tribal, share social and cultural preferences, etc, but this isn’t racism, as most people would experience, describe, or understand it. I think we’d be a _bit_ disingenuous if we tried to leap from the above question, into the harsh realities of racism in America, by trying to equate the two at any level. > [@protoboard](#): > > Black American culture is still very African in a lot of ways. And in many more ways, “it’s” not, especially in the context of what **Dr. Drake** was stating. The absolute devastation and resulting loss of identity between Black Americans and Africans, isn’t even funny. There are many cultural differences between Africans from various countries within the _continent_ of Africa, let alone Black Americans (where culture can be broken down further). > [@](#): > > Most human evil is due to a warped sense of justice and conflict over resources. Racism is just a narrative that’s been used to rationalize this at certain times in history. I strongly disagree with this, but even through your own terms, you clearly explain why racism is evil. If a mechanism is used to attain the ends, then the mechanism is just as evil. Who cares if _“it’s just a narrative”_ that’s oppressing people, if that _“narrative”_ is very obviously damaging? It’s a distinction without a difference. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/68 "2014-11-04T15:11:46Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Malice isn’t necessary for harm, and in most cases malice isn’t present. Some slave-owners believed that slavery was actually best for black people. They actually thought they were helping black people. I agree with you when there’s actual harm. Just saying stuff causes no harm though. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/69 "2014-11-04T15:22:59Z")
In some ways, African-American culture is “more American” than white American culture, and that’s probably one of the roots of the problems that African-Americans currently face. When most whites came to America, they brought their culture with them. They had a long tradition of lore, cultural heroes to look up to, and so on. For the most part, though, when blacks were brought to America, they were cut off from all of that. They didn’t have their long-established culture any more, and had to create a new one largely from scratch. Look at names, for instance: An Irish-American is likely to be named something like Patrick O’Brian, or Kevin Murphy, names from the old country. An African-American, however, is likely to be named something like DeJuan Washington, or Lashawn Jefferson: An invented first name, coupled with a last name borrowed from an American president. Meanwhile, there’s always been a tendency in humans to favor one’s “own group” over the “others”, but how “own group” and “others” have been defined has varied enormously throughout history. Sometimes it’s been racial, sometimes it’s been what people of the day would have called racial but which is completely different from what we call the races, and sometimes it’s been based on language, religion, or other factors. Most often, it’s some combination of all of these at once: Look at modern prejudice against Muslims, for instance, or Spanish speakers. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/70 "2014-11-04T15:23:29Z")
> [@Isamu](#): > > For anyone who thinks about it for more than a few minutes, that’s obviously not the definition of racism, by any means. It’'s just one aspect - the most talked about, and the most obvious to white people living in the USA, who equate racism with anti-African Americanism. It’s the foundation of it. Everything else like slavery, bigotry, segregation, prejudice, etc. is spun off of that kernel. If you don’t believe that Race X is superior than Race W, Y and Z, then nothing else follows. And you made a presumption that I was talking specifically about American Whites vs Black racism. That’s no where in my statement. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/71 "2014-11-04T15:24:57Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Let me guess: you’ve never been outside the USA and seen racism in other countries? Let me assure you that whites can be the victims of racism; let me assure you that people of all colours can be racist. Oh piff. Thanks for the news brief. The point I’m making is that the kind of argument protoboard is making is exclusive to those who are not the victims of racism but its beneficiaries. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/72 "2014-11-04T16:23:42Z")
Yesterday, someone on another board recounted their experience growing up as a black female, being taught by teachers whose racial bias negatively impacted how they treated her and other black students. This poster’s experience echoed my own. Reading her story gave me painful flashbacks. As a kid, you see early on this insidious pattern of disparities taking place around you, but you lack the maturity and understanding to see it for what it is. So your mind tries to rationalize it, to make it all make sense. Unless someone intervenes and corrects your thinking–or you have an epiphany on your own–it is all too easy to internalize the messages around you. Over time, your self-esteem is lowered as you set your sights lower, accomplishing less and less. Inferior is how you start seeing yourself, and inferior is what your life becomes. The white kids are smart, special, and destined for great things, the black kids are dumb, delinquent, and just a pack of faceless nobodies. And that’s just the way it is. This is one of the evils of racism. Wasted potential. Millions of people who grow up feeling less entitled to greatness than others simply because they belong to the “wrong” race. The effects start early in life, years before a person has the tools to protect themselves from these kind of insults. Society is only hurt by this. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/73 "2014-11-04T16:41:34Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > How is nationalism any different from racism? I would argue in some ways a white American does have more in common with a Pole than with a black American. Black American culture is still very African in a lot of ways. Yes, but so is white American culture, because Black American culture and mainstream White American culture have been living side by side for hundreds of years, and each has influenced the other. Better example: a white guy from Mississippi has more in common with a typical Black American than either does with a second-generation Polish-American from Chicago. In other words, “White” isn’t really a logical category when it comes to ethnicity, because the group is too large and diverse, and so racism can’t be justified as an outgrowth of natural ethnocentrism. It’s (in my opinion) a caste system, in that you can’t easily change the category you’re born into and one group is socially considered above another, or rather used to be in the bad old days. As for nationalism, I don’t think nationalism is inherently that different. Saying “Americans are better than Albanians” is silly. But as members of the same nationality, you have very real common interests with each other that you don’t have with foreign nationals, and recognizing that you’re in the same boat is useful. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/74 "2014-11-04T16:45:19Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > How is nationalism any different from racism? I would argue in some ways a white American does have more in common with a Pole than with a black American. Black American culture is still very African in a lot of ways. What ways are those? And what does “African” mean in this context? Kenyan? Egyptian? Ethiopian? Africa’s a big damn place. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/75 "2014-11-04T17:14:10Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Yesterday, someone on another board recounted their experience growing up as a black female, being taught by teachers whose racial bias negatively impacted how they treated her and other black students. This poster’s experience echoed my own. Reading her story gave me painful flashbacks. > > As a kid, you see early on this insidious pattern of disparities taking place around you, but you lack the maturity and understanding to see it for what it is. So your mind tries to rationalize it, to make it all make sense. Unless someone intervenes and corrects your thinking–or you have an epiphany on your own–it is all too easy to internalize the messages around you. Over time, your self-esteem is lowered as you set your sights lower, accomplishing less and less. Inferior is how you start seeing yourself, and inferior is what your life becomes. The white kids are smart, special, and destined for great things, the black kids are dumb, delinquent, and just a pack of faceless nobodies. And that’s just the way it is. > > This is one of the evils of racism. Wasted potential. Millions of people who grow up feeling less entitled to greatness than others simply because they belong to the “wrong” race. The effects start early in life, years before a person has the tools to protect themselves from these kind of insults. Society is only hurt by this. I’d note however, that well meaning people who are the furthest thing from racist also tend to perpetuate this problem. “the soft bigotry of low expectations”. My wife actually got into heated arguments with other black teachers about curriculum standards at a private religious school because many of them actually said, “You can’t expect black students to be able to do this.” Of course, an argument can be made that it’s still racism, even if it’s negative views of people who share your skin tone. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/76 "2014-11-04T17:18:00Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > My wife actually got into heated arguments with other black teachers about curriculum standards at a private religious school because many of them actually said, “You can’t expect black students to be able to do this.” > > Of course, an argument can be made that it’s still racism… Ya think? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/77 "2014-11-04T17:23:34Z")
Yeah, but she got accused of being the racist for making unreasonable demands on students that other teachers wanted to take it easy with. They seized on the fact she was Haitian to say she just didn’t understand. ---
**Author:** ![protoboard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/fbc32d/32.png) [@protoboard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/protoboard)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/78 "2014-11-04T17:25:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > That “warped sense” is very often warped by racism/ bigotry. Slavery in the US wouldn’t have occurred if it wasn’t widely believed that black people were sub-human. The Holocaust had nothing to do with economics or resources – Nazi Germany actually damaged their own economy and war effort by diverting resources to kill Jews. > > Without these sorts of beliefs, slavery would have been unsupportable and outlawed much earlier than it was, the Holocaust would not have happened, most of the thousands and thousands of racial and religious pogroms in history would not have occurred, the Middle East would be mostly peaceful, the Rwandan genocide would not have occurred, etc. In short, without these sorts of beliefs, _most of the worst things in history would not have occurred._ Nazi Germany was a special case. I think they really were mad. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/79 "2014-11-04T17:29:27Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Yeah, but she got accused of being the racist for making unreasonable demands on students that other teachers wanted to take it easy with. They seized on the fact she was Haitian to say she just didn’t understand. And? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/80 "2014-11-04T17:30:28Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Slavery in the US wouldn’t have occurred if it wasn’t widely believed that black people were sub-human. I’m not sure you have the causation correct. Black people would not have been considered sub-human if it weren’t for the perceived need to justify slavery. (Earlier eras did just fine with human slaves; it was only with the lofty philosophical pronouncements of the Enlightenment that slavery needed re-analysis. Even in early America it was still more about religion than race.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573.md?page=5)