# Is racism really that evil? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 4, 2014, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573 "2014-11-04T03:26:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/101 "2014-11-04T18:47:16Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > How is ethnocentrism any better than racism though? In the context of America, white and black Americans are different ethnicities, even if they’re both American. Racist conservatives in the US are not very fond of (white) Europeans either, they tend to see them as all being cowards or liberals. I am not saying that ethnocentrism is good. What I am saying is that ethnocentrism is irrelevant to a discussion of racism, because they are different. Racism is a systemic social system that is applied across a range of ethnicities, and ethnocentrism is how one single ethnicity perceives itself in relation to others. White Americans are not a single ethnicity and never have been. For the purposes of US racism, all whites are considered members of the same group, but it’s a social convention. It has almost nothing to do with actual ethnicity (except in the way the system creates ethnicity, but that’s secondary). You brought up ethnocentrism, but it’s a bit like saying “I want to talk about pizza. Tomatoes are natural.” Ethnicity has very, very, very little to do with race, and thus very little to do with racism. In a specific American context, you have the fact that African-Americans are (arguably) an ethnic group as well as a racial group, and people seize on that as justification for conflating the two concepts, but that’s pure ignorance at work. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/102 "2014-11-04T18:55:24Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > I’ve been around Occupy and read a lot of liberal forums online (believe it or not I actually consider myself a leftist) and there is definitely a strong desire to punish white people for the past. The Left is essentially anti-Western and also has absorbed a lot of right-wing anti-government ideas; this is going to be the downfall of liberalism and humanism if they don’t wise up. If this exists, it’s a very small part of the left and liberal thought in the US. Most US liberals don’t feel this way, in my experience. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/103 "2014-11-04T19:41:49Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That argument applies to all crimes. The more you fight it, the less you get of it, but at some point it becomes a bit much. > > Do you think we could nearly eliminate drug use if we regarded drug users as no better than Klansmen? Heck yeah. We’d still have drug users, but it would be so marginalized that few would admit to it. I do notice that we’re starting to treat spousal abuse and rape that way, and that’s positive. I wonder what other societal evils we can totally marginalize by treating it the same way we do racism? Smoking. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/104 "2014-11-04T20:14:53Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > I’ve been around Occupy and read a lot of liberal forums online (believe it or not I actually consider myself a leftist) and there is definitely a strong desire to punish white people for the past. The Left is essentially anti-Western and also has absorbed a lot of right-wing anti-government ideas; this is going to be the downfall of liberalism and humanism if they don’t wise up. If what you’re saying is true, you’ve been hanging around some fringe sites. Check out the liberal mainstream and you won’t see any of that nonsense. Liberals aren’t anti-white or anti-American or anti-western. And I think even conservatives would get a chuckle out of hearing liberals being described as anti-government. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/105 "2014-11-04T20:24:52Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > That argument applies to all crimes. The more you fight it, the less you get of it, but at some point it becomes a bit much. > > Do you think we could nearly eliminate drug use if we regarded drug users as no better than Klansmen? Heck yeah. We’d still have drug users, but it would be so marginalized that few would admit to it. I do notice that we’re starting to treat spousal abuse and rape that way, and that’s positive. I wonder what other societal evils we can totally marginalize by treating it the same way we do racism? Let’s consider another example of something we all consider to be bad: disease. Do you think there’s an acceptable minimum of disease? That we shouldn’t try to eliminate all polio or smallpox, for example? Sure, everyone agrees we should reduce this diseases down from epidemic levels. But we want to stop before we go all the way down to zero. We should just aim for marginalizing polio and smallpox. We should still have some people getting these diseases every year for the good of society. I can’t see the sense of such an argument. I think we should aim for complete elimination of some problems. Our goal with disease should be zero. And I feel the same way about racism. I don’t see any need for an acceptable minimal amount of racism. Our goal with racism should be zero. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/106 "2014-11-04T20:33:08Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > Isn’t it natural for people to care more for people who have more in common with them? Isn’t that the reason we love our family and friends more than strangers? It’s not rational but it’s so engrained in us it’s impossible to deny. Some socialist movements tried to abolish the family for collective living and they all failed. I’m not a racist myself because I like pretty much anyone who is kind to me but race is more than just skin color, it’s also culture and ways of doing things. It seems natural, and perhaps in some incarnations it may even seem harmless. The problem is we live in an unequal society because the U.S. is dominated by one race. The country was for all intents and purposes built on the subjugation of other races, whether those would be immigrants or slaves. It’s easy for people to forget but the Irish, Italians, Polish etc. were not considered ‘‘white’’ as we understand it today. They had to pay the wages of whiteness, so to speak, by assimilating into the white culture. Regardless of how well meaning we may be, we have still constructed a society that, consciously or not, favors whiteness, or the familiarity of culture you identify as being ‘‘natural.’’ That culture dominates the airwaves, the television, the internet, the courts, the schools, the corporations, and pretty much everywhere. That culture defines beauty and morality by its own white standards, and takes its own perspective for granted as normal, natural, common sense, etc. That culture is often blind to the fact that the country is full of people who have a completely different lived experience. The result is egregious disparities between those who are white and those who are not. The statistics speak for themselves. On every general measure of quality of life, mortality, obesity, disease, income, wealth, etc. white people, as a whole, come out ahead. That is inherently harmful, and refusing to acknowledge it only perpetuates it. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/107 "2014-11-04T20:33:23Z")
> [@HoneyBadgerDC](#): > > I just believe more could be done to rehabilitate those who need it and it is fair to expect them to fully particapate in their own recovery if they have the ability to do so. I don’t think there’s ever been any anti-racism program that didn’t expect black people to supply a large share of the effort. Even if you go all the way back to the extreme example of John Brown - he expected slaves to rise up and join him. And every program since has counted on black participation. Civil rights has never been something white people do for black people. It’s always been something white people and black people have done together. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/108 "2014-11-04T23:21:16Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > This never actually existed; there were Cherokee and even black slave owners and there were white slaves.\*\* Blacks from Africa were imported because the Native Americans refused to work.\*\* [bolding mine] Just that little bit tells me you’re very confused about American History. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/109 "2014-11-04T23:27:26Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > Most human evil is due to a warped sense of justice and conflict over resources. Racism is just a narrative that’s been used to rationalize this at certain times in history. > > I would say they are in between. \*\*African immigrants to the US actually merge into Black American communities surprisingly well because the cultures are quite similar. \*\*But yes black and white Americans are quite similar too, not denying that! No, this is completely wrong. Many African immigrants often try their damnedest to stay away from black Americans and black American culture. There’s a huge amount of friction between the two communities. They only start assimilating into black America when white Americans make it clear that they’re not welcome. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/110 "2014-11-04T23:34:33Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Which is why society punishes it by pretty much ending your career. Unless you can get someone credible to “vouch” for you, which saved Howard Cosell. Quite the ad hoc justice system. Seems like something more out of a mafia movie. Nope. Paula Deen still has a great career. They gave her a timeout, and now she’s back in business. So was Don Imus. So was Doug Tracht. So was Mike Wallace. ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2014, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/111 "2014-11-04T23:39:58Z")
> [@protoboard](#): > > The problem is the Left often isn’t even fighting racism per se - they just want to invert the hierarchy so that minorities of all sorts get a free pass and the privileged are punished for their collective sins. This is what happened in Rwanda and what happened in Zimbabwe under Mugabe. It’s perfectly PC to generalize about men or white people or straight people. I dislike the term “social Marxism” because to me class is a totally different (and more important) issue but the way liberals want to punish white people is very similar to the way Marxists punished the Cossacks in the Soviet Union. What do you think happened in Rwanda? You’re pretty confused about world history, and this tends to devalue most of your arguments. ---
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/112 "2014-11-05T00:03:24Z")
Speaking of Zimbabwe, When I read about some of the conditions in some areas of sub-Saharan Africa, I often wonder if most of the everyday folks would’ve been better off under their former European rule. Many of the replies read like “But the ruling whites were racist in Rhodesia”. Was that really much worse than living under Zimbabwe’s oppression and economic failures under Mugabe? Same with places like Somalia, Central African Republic, Sudan, and the DR Congo (vs post Leopold, naturally). ---
**Author:** ![Belowjob2.0](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Belowjob2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Belowjob2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/113 "2014-11-05T02:39:51Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > Speaking of Zimbabwe, > > When I read about some of the conditions in some areas of sub-Saharan Africa, I often wonder if most of the everyday folks would’ve been better off under their former European rule. > > Many of the replies read like “But the ruling whites were racist in Rhodesia”. Was that really much worse than living under Zimbabwe’s oppression and economic failures under Mugabe? Same with places like Somalia, Central African Republic, Sudan, and the DR Congo (vs post Leopold, naturally). Not Congo, that’s for sure: [The Butcher of Congo](http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/35/181.html) > [@](#): > > "True, with a population loss estimated at 10 million people, what happened in the Congo could reasonably be called the most murderous part of the European Scramble for Africa. But that is so only if you look at sub-Saharan Africa as the arbitrary checkerboard formed by colonial boundaries. > > "With a decade of [Leopold’s] head start [in the Congo], similar forced labour systems for extracting rubber were in place in the French territories west and north of the Congo River, in Portuguese-ruled Angola, and in the nearby Cameroon under the Germans. > > "In France’s equatorial African territories, where the region’s history is best documented, the amount of rubber-bearing land was far less than what Leopold controlled, but the rape was just as brutal. Almost all exploitable land was divided among concession companies. Forced labour, hostages, slave chains, starving porters, burned villages, paramilitary company ‘sentries’, and the chicotte were the order of the day. [The chicotte was a vicous whip made out of raw, sun-dried hippopotamus hide, cut into a long sharp-edged cork-screw strip. It was applied to bare buttocks, and left permanent scars. Twenty strokes of it sent victims into unconsciousness; and a 100 or more strokes were often fatal. The chicotte was freely used by both Leopold’s men and the French]. > > “Thousands of refugees who had fled across the Congo River to escape Leopold’s regime eventually fled back to escape the French [in Congo-Brazzaville]. The population loss in the rubber-rich equatorial rainforest owned by France is estimated, just as in Leopold’s Congo, at roughly 50%.” And not in many other parts of Africa, either. European colonizers committed atrocities all over Africa. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/114 "2014-11-05T06:26:07Z")
> [@HubZilla](#): > > Speaking of Zimbabwe, > > When I read about some of the conditions in some areas of sub-Saharan Africa, I often wonder if most of the everyday folks would’ve been better off under their former European rule. No, they would not. [And here’s a thread just for people like for you.](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=418783) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/115 "2014-11-05T06:30:23Z")
> [@Belowjob2.0](#): > > And not in many other parts of Africa, either. European colonizers committed atrocities all over Africa. Ain’t that [the truth](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herero_and_Namaqua_Genocide) ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [November 5, 2014, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573/116 "2014-11-05T07:01:16Z")
Even in the “good” colonies - the ones that didn’t involve massacres and such - the colonial administrations have a mixed record at best. In many cases, they took what had been a self-sustaining society and integrated it into the global economy. Which was often no great thing for the society. The colony or post-colonial nation was now subject to economic problems over which it had no control. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-racism-really-that-evil/703573.md?page=5)