# Is rape legal under hypnosis? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 3, 2000, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-legal-under-hypnosis/35466 "2000-10-03T08:37:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-legal-under-hypnosis/35466/21 "2000-10-03T17:15:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biffer Spice \* > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > No, you do not have to prove I hypnotized you. For me to be convicted of robbery, the **court** must prove beyond a reasonable doubt that I participated in the robbery. Surely for me to be innocent, I would have to prove I had been duped into the robbery, and was not acting as I otherwise would. [/QUOTE] Let’s make sure we get this as clear as possible; being “duped” into the robbery or not acting as you otherwise would are irrelevant points. If it is proven that you physically committed the robbery, your only defense would be that you were incapable of forming criminal intent. Whether I “duped” you or not doesn’t matter. You would be in a position whereby you’d not only have to present evidence you were hypnotized, but you would also have to present scientific evidence that hypnosis prevents you from forming conscious intent and knowing the consequences of your actions. > [@](#): > > No, but that would surely be easier to prove than if you hypnotised me. My main question is whether hypnosis leaves proof. If someone does something under hypnosis, is that possible to find out at a later date. eg a hypnotist gets someone to run around pretending they’re a rabbit. Is there a way after the event you could test that person to find out if they were hypnotised or were merely pretending to be hypnotised? I think that’s a new question. And no, you can’t establish that. > [@](#): > > **The question, then, is whether or not the hypnotized person is under hypnosis. My understanding of hypnosis, as explained to me by doctors of psychology, is that a person under hypnosis is still a conscious individual who understands the difference between right and wrong, and so would be able to legally form intent (and hence is culpable.)** > > Would they still be culpable if the person they killed was innocent, even though they thought they had killed someone they had been persuaded had a gun and was about to kill them? (another e.g.) If you legitimately and honestly believe a person is about to kill you or someone else, you have a legally valid reason to use force to stop them. I don’t happen to believe what you’re saying is possible, but if you could do it, the hypnotized killer would have a legitimate defense. Stranger things have happened. In Canada, a man was acquitted for murder because he told the court that the man he beat to death was a “bearwalker,” which according to his native beliefs is an evil spirit set on destroying his soul. Really. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-legal-under-hypnosis/35466/22 "2000-10-03T17:18:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Biffer Spice \* > \*\*Thanks Bricker. As above, I acknowledge that it is in fact rape, because the victim has been made to have sex by false suggestion, when the victim would not otherwise have engaged in sex. \*\* “False suggestion” isn’t a legal standard for rape anywhere. If I tell you I’ll respect you in the morning, we have sex, and in the morning I don’t respect you, it’s not rape. Dishonesty doesn’t count as rape. Rape requires a _lack of consent_. Except in some cases of statutury rape, you can be a weasel to elicit consent. ---
**Author:** ![Drum\_God](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drum_god/32/44_2.png) [@Drum\_God](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drum_God)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-legal-under-hypnosis/35466/23 "2000-10-03T17:39:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\* > > Virginia law as an example, Va. Code § 18.2-61, Rape, provides as follows: > > > [@](#): > > > > If any person has sexual intercourse with a complaining witness **who is not his or her spouse** or causes a complaining witness, whether or not his or her spouse, to engage in sexual intercourse with any other person and such act is accomplished … (ii) through the use of the complaining witness’s mental incapacity or physical helplessness … he or she shall be guilty of rape. > > \*\* Total change of subject, but does this mean that, in Virginia, it is legal to have non-consensual sex with your spouse? Not that it’s a good idea, I was just wondering. ---
**Author:** ![toadspittle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c0e974/32.png) [@toadspittle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/toadspittle)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-legal-under-hypnosis/35466/24 "2000-10-03T18:44:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Bricker \* > \*\*… that is black-letter law rape. > > \*\* Yikes! Now THERE’S a phrase for you. Sounds ominous! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-legal-under-hypnosis/35466/25 "2000-10-03T20:41:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Drum God \* > \*\*Total change of subject, but does this mean that, in Virginia, it is legal to have non-consensual sex with your spouse? Not that it’s a good idea, I was just wondering. \*\* Good question. The answer, in short, is that it is rape in Virginia to have sex with one’s spouse against the spouse’s will by force, threat or intimidation while living apart, or by force, threat or intimidation that causes bodily injury. So far as I can determine, it is not rape in Virginia to have sex with one’s spouse through the use of the spouse’s mental incapacity or physical helplessness. See § 18.2-61 subsections B-D. This is not legal advice. You are not entitled to rely on this as legal advice. But that’s how I read it. - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [October 3, 2000, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-legal-under-hypnosis/35466/26 "2000-10-03T21:39:25Z")
I am not an expert on hypnosis, but I have been hypnotised in a stage show a few times. I would like to build on something that AudryK said: > [@](#): > > The hypnotizer-hypnotizee relationship is interactive. Neither one is ever passively involved. The hypnotizee is not some mindless drone of the hypnotizer; rather, the hypnotizee actively takes in the suggestions suggested by the hypnotizer. In turn, the hypnotizer is reliant on the hypnotizee’s willingness to follow the suggestions he puts forth. No cooperation, no results. Therefore, the actions of a hypnotized person are equal parts the responsibility of the hypnotizer and the hypnotized person himself This is true. You need to basically give consent to have your perceptions altered. While hypnotised, at no time was I actually unaware of the actual environment. I had just chosen to go along with the hypnotist’s suggestions. Some people are able to go further under, and will accept the suggestions to a greater degree, and a longer and more private session would probably put me further under. But I don’t think it is possible to lose all contact with the actual situation. You just, to one degree or another, are pretending another situation applies. It is an altered state, but it is not equivalent to drugs or insanity, as far as legal issues are concerned. In other words, hypnosis is not going to be a sustainable legal defense. You knew the actual situation, so your actions carry valid intent. Your only hope would be if the prosecution couldn’t present an expert witness to say what I just did, or if the judge or jury didn’t believe the witness. ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-legal-under-hypnosis/35466/27 "2000-10-04T06:49:30Z")
Holy schmolies. I’ll go in order. > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Biffer Spice_ > \*\*My question is if it was a case of one person’s word against another, then is that not cause for reasonable doubt? \*\* Here’s the rape scenario you proposed: Let’s say a guy hypnotizes a girl, and somehow he talks her into thinking he’s her celebrity lust object-- oh, say Keanu Reeves. So she’s delighted by “Keanu’s” come-ons and frolicks in bed with him all night, never once realizing that the guy’s actually 5’2", 300 pounds, and bald. Eventually, she comes out of her hypnotized state and realizes what happened. So she calls the cops, and the guy gets arrested on a rape charge. The case goes to trial. The guy denies that he did any hypnosis and says she wanted to sleep with him. She says no, she thought he was Keanu Reeves. (Yes, she would be fully aware of everything that happened.) When you get down to it, how does this differ from any other rape case? She didn’t give the guy consent. Sure, she gave consent… but to Keanu Reeves. The guy took advantage of her mistaking him for Keanu Reeves. I believe it’s called opportunistic rape. Besides, like I said before, the whole scenario cannot happen, because **hypnosis does not work that way**. Period. As for your murder and rape scenarios, they can’t happen either. You **cannot** be made to do something you wouldn’t want to do unhypnotized. You also **cannot** be made to think you’re someone you’re not, nor can you be made to think someone is someone other than whom they really are. It would have nothing to do with the skill, credibility or ethics of the hypnotist. It **cannot** be done. > [@](#): > > **I am interested as to whether a hypnotizee (good word), who would only do something under certain rare circumstances, can be persuaded that those rare circumstances are present.** That would have to be one hell of a snow job. And like I said before, the person would have to be higly prone to suggestion to accept what they’re fed. Even then, the hypnotist still has the exact same chance of convincing them to do something under hypnosis that he would have if the person wasn’t hypnotized. > [@](#): > > \*\*If professional hypnotists touch on these things, then they CAN be done? Even though you doubt they try to change them, is it possible that they can? \*\* It’s possible they can but it’s very likely they won’t. It’s unethical, and it’s impractical to deal with something as highly ingrained as morals with something as experimental as hypnosis. Yes, experimental. Psychology does not yet fully understand what hypnosis is, or how it works. But it does know its limits. > [@](#): > > **If it’s used for behaviour therapy, then surely it CAN and DOES influence behaviour.** When hypnosis is used in behavior therapy, the therapist will likely have the person-- let’s say an agoraphobic-- imagine himself in a situation where he’s outside his house. That’s it. He’ll be asked to imagine possible scenarios and imagine his interactions with his environment. This, paired with the relaxation aspect of hypnosis, will help the person face the real-life situation. Hypnosis alone cannot change a person’s behavior. Influence, yes, but not to as great a degree as you think. > [@](#): > > \*\*I’d say it did matter who you thought your neighbour was. You had been tricked into killing an innocent person you would not otherwise have killed. Your hypnotiser would be more responsible than you, IMO, and yet I’m not convinced it would ever stick in court, and you’d be put away, while he/she would walk away. \*\* ::sigh:: You’re not listening. **No hypnotist can make you do something you wouldn’t normally do. You cannot be tricked into believing something unless you were willing to be the dupe.** And since a hypnotized person is cognizant, he and his hypnotizer would be equally responsible for his actions. The hypnotizer would be considered a co-conspirator. > [@](#): > > **I’m genuinely curious about the legal ramifications of hypnosis, when used to commit crimes, etc.** I can’t imagine there’s been any precedent for it. Of course, there doesn’t have to be, because it can’t happen unless the hypnotizee wanted to be a criminal (at least on some level) to begin with. > [@](#): > > **To be honest, I would not allow myself to submit to a hypnotist, the whole thing freaks me out, but maybe that’s cos of what I think an unscrupulous person could use it for.** I thought so. Never fear! 🙂 Mind control does not exist. Targeted advertising is as close as we’ve gotten, and whether it works is so unclear, it’s GD material. > [@](#): > > **(Not that I’m saying you would, you understand 🙂 )** 😃 Sez who? > [@](#): > > **I’m sure in the right hands, it can be really beneficial.** It definitely is. I’ve been hypnotized lightly twice, by my professor, and I’ve enjoyed both times. Each time lasted about 15-20 minutes, and I came out of it feeling refreshed. **Saltire:** If you were chosen as a hypnotizee in a stage show, the hypnotist must have found you to be prone to suggestion. There are tests hypnotists can to do determine how suggestible you are-- the one I use in class has to do with the natural tendency for people to sway after a while when they stand in one place with their eyes closed. Swaying is normal; your body is trying to balance itself without its main indicator of balance (vision). People who are prone to suggestion sway even more when you tell them they’re swaying. ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 7:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-legal-under-hypnosis/35466/28 "2000-10-04T07:30:15Z")
\*When you get down to it, how does this differ from any other rape case? She didn’t give the guy consent. Sure, she gave consent… but to Keanu Reeves. The guy took advantage of her mistaking him for Keanu Reeves. I believe it’s called opportunistic rape. \* Just speculating for the fun of it here, but… how is this different from me getting someone to go to bed with me by telling her that I’m the CEO of a billion-dollar internet company, when actually I clean toilets at the dysentery clinic for $5.35/hour? She gave a rich guy consent, not some penniless slob. I took advantage of her mistaking me for a multi-millionaire, so is that also opportunistic rape? Does it make a difference if she was under hypnosis or not when I gave my line of BS? –sublight. ---
**Author:** ![Biffer\_Spice](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/fbc32d/32.png) [@Biffer\_Spice](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffer_Spice)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-legal-under-hypnosis/35466/29 "2000-10-04T08:36:13Z")
Great answers, people. Thanks very much, that’s sated my curiosity. 😃 Now I should get back to work ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Wendell\_Wagner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8491ac/32.png) [@Wendell\_Wagner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wendell_Wagner)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 8:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-legal-under-hypnosis/35466/30 "2000-10-04T08:48:17Z")
AudreyK, Could you recommend a good book on how hypnosis works (and why it’s different from the nonsense you sometimes see on TV and in movies) for Biffer Spice? I think it’s going to take a book for her to be convinced that her naive image of how hypnosis works is incorrect. ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [October 4, 2000, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-legal-under-hypnosis/35466/31 "2000-10-04T09:29:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sublight \* > **Just speculating for the fun of it here, but… how is this different from me getting someone to go to bed with me by telling her that I’m the CEO of a billion-dollar internet company, when actually I clean toilets at the dysentery clinic for $5.35/hour? She gave a rich guy consent, not some penniless slob. I took advantage of her mistaking me for a multi-millionaire, so is that also opportunistic rape? Does it make a difference if she was under hypnosis or not when I gave my line of BS?** In your example, you flat out lied to her. In hypnosis, the hypnotist suggests the illusion. The hypnotizee agrees to accept the illusion as reality. For it to be the same, you’d have to tell your woman, “Okay, I’m going to fabricate this identity for myself. You can then have sex with this identity if you choose to believe it’s who I really am.” Don’t think you’d have much success with that approach. 🙂 Wendell Wagner, good question. I really don’t know of any good books on the subject. All I know about hypnosis I learned from lectures from one of my professors (who, unfortunately, is not in Hawaii right now, and won’t be for a while longer), and I don’t know where he gets his information. All I have are my own notes, which includes the suggestions narrative that I use in my classes. I’d be happy to forward them to anyone interested. Really, though, it’s best to experience it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-legal-under-hypnosis/35466.md?page=1)