# Is rape really about power and not sex? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [February 14, 2013, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275 "2013-02-14T12:31:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275/41 "2013-02-14T21:03:47Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Infants and children are under the age of 30, so this stat doesn’t support the claim about the vast majority of rape victims being in their 20’s. > > Please take a look at this [post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=14573199&postcount=180) I wrote in a past thread that touched upon rape. Girls below the age of 11 are at greater risk of rape than adult women. It’s easy to conclude otherwise when just look at prevalence, but for a more meaningful analysis, you have to take into account the length of time an adult spends at risk of rape compared to a child. When you control for the multiple decades worth of exposure that adults have relative to kids less than a decade old, it’s more obvious that kids are at greater risk of being victimized. > > So really there is no basis for saying that rapists preferentially attack women of childbearing age. Which seems to be the premise the OP derives his conclusion. In that thread, you first linked to a summary of what you called a study, and what the authors call a survey: “Prevalence, Case Characteristics, and Long-Term Psychological Correlates of Child Rape Among Women: A National Survey.” Finding the actual survey, and quoting from page 189: > [@](#): > > Completed rape was defined as any non-consensual penetration of the victim’s vagina, anus, or mouth by an object or by a perpetrator’s penis, finger, or tongue that involved the use of force, the threat of force, or coercion. Definition of force, threat, and coercion was left to each respondent’s subjective judgement. This is a fairly broad definition of the term “rape,” certainly one that exceeds the legal definition of the term. A forcible french kiss, for example, fits that definition: non-consensual penetration of a mouth by a tongue. For this reason, I believe it’s fair to say that the numbers reported might be higher than a more restricted definition of rape would reveal. Your second link was to the USDOJ’s summary of “Findings From the National Violence Against Women Survey.” Quoting from that document: > [@](#): > > \*\*What were the study’s limitations? \*\* > > Because only 24 women and 8 men reported during their interviews that they had been raped in the 12 months preceding the survey, the annual estimates should be viewed with caution. NVAWS most likely underestimates the actual number of annual rapes because it excludes rapes of children and adolescents and those who are homeless or > live in institutions, group facilities, or residences without telephones. For this reason, I believe your second link underreports actual incidents of rape. And taking both into account, I believe your conclusion – that the high numbers from your first link prove that child rape is not rarer than adult rape – is suspect. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275/42 "2013-02-14T21:41:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This is a fairly broad definition of the term “rape,” certainly one that exceeds the legal definition of the term. A forcible french kiss, for example, fits that definition: non-consensual penetration of a mouth by a tongue. Unless you can show that child rape is more likely of the forced french kiss variety than teenage/adult rape is, then I don’t know why you think this objection means anything in this conversation. > [@Bricker](#): > > ]Your second link was to the USDOJ’s summary of “Findings From the National Violence Against Women Survey.” > > Quoting from that document: > [@](#): > > What were the study’s limitations? > > Because only 24 women and 8 men reported during their interviews that they had been raped in the 12 months preceding the survey, the annual estimates should be viewed with caution. \*\*NVAWS most likely underestimates the actual number of annual rapes because it excludes rapes of children and adolescents \*\*and those who are homeless or > live in institutions, group facilities, or residences without telephones. > [@](#): > > For this reason, I believe your second link underreports actual incidents of rape. Yeah it is underreported; now I need you to marinate a little bit on the part in bold. Child and teenaged rape are left out of the estimate. But the populaton surveyed are adult women who at one point in theirlives was a child and teenager. So if 17% of the surveyed female adult population reported experiencing rape in their lifetime, we can be assured that at some of those rapes occurred when they were minors. > [@](#): > > And taking both into account, I believe your conclusion – that the high numbers from your first link prove that child rape is not rarer than adult rape – is suspect. It’s not suspect, but go ahead and wow us with data that show being a juvenile is protective against rape. I’m confident you won’t be able to find anything, but since you doubt the legitimacy of my conclusion, I invite you to bring some cites to the fore. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275/43 "2013-02-14T22:02:51Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > This is a fairly broad definition of the term “rape,” certainly one that exceeds the legal definition of the term. A forcible french kiss, for example, fits that definition: non-consensual penetration of a mouth by a tongue. > [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Unless you can show that child rape is more likely of the forced french kiss variety than teenage/adult rape is, then I don’t know why you think this objection means anything in this conversation. It’s obvious. You quote the first “study” numbers for the high incidence of child rape. But since the “rape” behavior in that survey includes at least behavior that isn’t rape, those numbers are too high. I don’t have to which is more likely – just that the overall definition is so broad that the numbers are less meaningful. Of the 4,008 (weighted) respondents, 339 (8.5%) reported experiencing at least one completed “rape” prior to age 18. But the survey does not differentiate between any non-consensual penetration of the victim’s vagina, anus, or mouth by an object or by a perpetrator’s penis, finger, or tongue that involved the use of force, the threat of force, or coercion, and it leaves the definition of force, threat, and coercion to each respondent’s subjective judgement. So that doesn’t allow us to infer that 8.5% would also be rape victims by a more restrictive standard, and it certainly doesn’t permit you to compare that percentage to another percentage in another publication that used a different definition of “rape.” Does it? I mean, you’re all about the correct use of inference here: “According to RAINN, 44% of victims are under the age of 18.” “This still doesn’t alllow us to infer that rapists preferentially target teenagers and 20-somethings.” That’s absolutely right. How come you don’t hew to that same standard in this discussion? ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2013, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275/44 "2013-02-14T22:25:42Z")
I’ve never been comfortable with the word “power” being described as one of the motivators of sexual violence. I think “control” is a much more accurate description. Substitute that word, and you can make the statement “rape is motivated by a desire for control” and have it be applicable to pretty much all the forms of sexual violence out there. Control over another person by denying them the right to say no, control over that person’s body, control over where and when the rapist gets sexual gratification. It encompasses everything from the entitled frat boy date rapist to child molesters to predatory sexual sadists. ---
**Author:** ![pancakes3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ba9def/32.png) [@pancakes3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pancakes3)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 12:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275/45 "2013-02-15T00:37:57Z")
> [@phouka](#): > > I’ve never been comfortable with the word “power” being described as one of the motivators of sexual violence. I think “control” is a much more accurate description. > > Substitute that word, and you can make the statement “rape is motivated by a desire for control” and have it be applicable to pretty much all the forms of sexual violence out there. Control over another person by denying them the right to say no, control over that person’s body, control over where and when the rapist gets sexual gratification. It encompasses everything from the entitled frat boy date rapist to child molesters to predatory sexual sadists. A strong desire to control others but pretty low desire to control oneself. Narcissism? ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275/46 "2013-02-15T00:38:08Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > It’s obvious. You quote the first “study” numbers for the high incidence of child rape. But since the “rape” behavior in that survey includes at least behavior that isn’t rape, those numbers are too high. I don’t have to which is more likely – just that the overall definition is so broad that the numbers are less meaningful. You haven’t shown the the definition is overly broad. Perhaps you should do that before you spout off anymore. From the [Bureau of Justice Statistics](http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=tp&tid=317#terms_def), rape is: > [@](#): > > Forced sexual intercourse including both psychological coercion as well as physical force. Forced sexual intercourse means vaginal, anal or \*\*oral penetration \*\*by the offender (s). This category also includes incidents where the penetration is from a **foreign object such as a bottle**. Includes attempted rapes, male as well as female victims, and both heterosexual and homosexual rape. Attempted rape includes verbal threats of rape. So technically, using this definition, forced French kissing fits under the definition of rape, since there is no requirement that the object being shoved in your mouth be a genital. But you and I damn well know the vast majority of humanity wouldn’t label an unwanted kiss as rape. Only pedantic twits with some bizarre need to downplay the prevalence of child rape would try to argue that the mere possibility of this happening in a survey renders the conclusions of an entire study suspect. > [@](#): > > That’s absolutely right. How come you don’t hew to that same standard in this discussion? Because I’m not a pedantic twit with some bizarre need to downplay the prevalence of child rape. ---
**Author:** ![Idle\_Thoughts](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/838e76/32.png) [@Idle\_Thoughts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Idle_Thoughts)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275/47 "2013-02-15T01:32:39Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > Because I’m not a pedantic twit with some bizarre need to downplay the prevalence of child rape. Let’s drop the name calling unless you’re in the Pit. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275/48 "2013-02-15T01:56:45Z")
> [@Altivu](#): > > But…but rape is free!!!1 > > Why aren’t men more frequently raped then? No point of trying to express power over them, or you just know they won’t be as “easy” of a target? It’s more difficult for one thing. Men are larger & stronger than women and more prone to act in a group. For another, most of the people who would be interested in raping men are women, who are smaller, less likely to work together than men, generally interested in PIV sex which is harder to coerce, and as a rule aren’t prone to initiating sex in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![Simple\_Linctus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Simple\_Linctus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Simple_Linctus)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275/49 "2013-02-15T02:28:57Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > So technically, using this definition, forced French kissing fits under the definition of rape, since there is no requirement that the object being shoved in your mouth be a genital. But you and I damn well know the vast majority of humanity wouldn’t label an unwanted kiss as rape. Only pedantic twits with some bizarre need to downplay the prevalence of child rape would try to argue that the mere possibility of this happening in a survey renders the conclusions of an entire study suspect. Depends on how the survey is run, doesn’t it? If the survey is “were you raped as a child?” you are right. If the survey is “did any of the following things happen to you as a child?” followed by a very long extensive list of things that would not reasonably be considered rape then Bricker is right. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275/50 "2013-02-15T02:38:26Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s more difficult for one thing. Men are larger & stronger than women and more prone to act in a group. For another, most of the people who would be interested in raping men are women, who are smaller, less likely to work together than men, generally interested in PIV sex which is harder to coerce, and as a rule aren’t prone to initiating sex in the first place. There was that thing with Marcellus Wallace, I think that is more along the lines of what is meant by a man being raped. Most of the time. ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275/51 "2013-02-15T02:38:28Z")
People who say rape is all about power don’t know men. Whereas rape is at once a crude and refined cruelty against a woman, the same way torture is to a man, there are men who force themselves upon a woman purely out of lust and a desire to couple. I’m surprised I even need to write that. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275/52 "2013-02-15T02:42:29Z")
> [@For You](#): > > There was that thing with Marcellus Wallace, I think that is more along the lines of what is meant by a man being raped. Most of the time. Women are perfectly capable of raping men, it’s just harder. ---
**Author:** ![colander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e8c25b/32.png) [@colander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colander)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275/53 "2013-02-15T02:58:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s more difficult for one thing. Men are larger & stronger than women and more prone to act in a group. Cite? > [@](#): > > For another, most of the people who would be interested in raping men are women, Cite? > [@](#): > > who are smaller, less likely to work together than men, Cite? > [@](#): > > generally interested in PIV sex Cite? > [@](#): > > which is harder to coerce, and as a rule aren’t prone to initiating sex in the first place. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275/54 "2013-02-15T05:28:11Z")
Is anyone else still trying to figure out what demons and the supernatural have to do with any of this? > [@donnie\_darko](#): > > To me personally, while rape is disgusting no matter what way you put it, I find the idea of it being an act of sexual and genetic frustration much less disturbing than thinking of it as **some demonic unexplainable kind of malice**. And no, I’m not saying men can’t help it, because they certainly can. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t a Darwinian explanation for rape and that we have to introduce **supernatural ideas of evil** to explain the existence of sexual assault. (Bolding mine.) Just so we’re all on the same page here, you do understand that when people say “rape is about power” they’re not talking about _magical_ power, right? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 6:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275/55 "2013-02-15T06:07:38Z")
I always want to piss myself laughing whenever I read about all the men who are utterly terrified about either being raped by women or falsely accused of being raped by women. Seriously, what’s the deal? Did some people get beat up and pantsed in front of their schoolmates by some girls or something? ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275/56 "2013-02-15T06:09:53Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > For another, most of the people who would be interested in raping men are women, That is quite possibly the stupidest thing I have ever read on this site. I will happily give twenty dollars to the charity of your choice if you can provide a reliable cite for it. Please do so or admit you were wrong. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275/57 "2013-02-15T07:04:45Z")
Some guys, you know, piss me off so bad, I want to take a paper towel tube and … ---
**Author:** ![donnie\_darko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ecae2f/32.png) [@donnie\_darko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/donnie_darko)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275/58 "2013-02-15T07:05:05Z")
BTW, I apologize for posting this on Valentine’s Day. I didn’t even think about how that might be taken as problematic. I thought it was a good topic to be given the dope treatment though since this idea “rape is not about sex” is something that’s almost universally accepted as fact, despite being quite controversial from a scientific point of view. ---
**Author:** ![SSG\_Schwartz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@SSG\_Schwartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SSG_Schwartz)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 8:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275/59 "2013-02-15T08:09:15Z")
I tried to read through this mess, but I saw so many errors of thinking that I started to get angry to the point that I did not think this could be a real post. From what I have seen from the inmates in my custody: Most rapists who violate children are reported and charged with a sex crime. That seems easy enough to understand. If someone is having sex with your four year old daughter, you are going to call the cops if you are a responsible parent. Because children, in most jurisdictions, under the age of 12 are unable to give consent, it is rape. It can’t be a desire to impregnate the victim in this case because ~all~ most are pre-pubescent. Men are raped at the same frequency as women. Shocking, huh? After conducting counseling sessions with male rapists, most will admit to having a male victim. The idea of the only way a man gets raped is from a sexually frustrated female who is much bigger than him does not hold true from the reports of the offenders. In fact, most have had a male victim prior to any female sexual assaults. It is that the male victims are less likely to report the rape. Rape can be a sex crime. Sometimes the rapist does not have the social skills that most of us do in order to understand that “NO” means “NO.” Sometimes rape can be an expression of violence, as when a woman is battered by her husband because she didn’t want sex that night. Sometimes rapes is a power tool, when a cop forces himself on a woman who got a DUI. There are many reasons for rape and sexual assault. You really can’ t blame it on how the victim dressed, or her age, or her attractiveness level. SFC Schwartz ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2013, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275/60 "2013-02-15T11:22:23Z")
> [@SSG\_Schwartz](#): > > From what I have seen from the inmates in my custody: > > Most rapists who violate children are reported and charged with a sex crime. That seems easy enough to understand. If someone is having sex with your four year old daughter, you are going to call the cops if you are a responsible parent. I agree with everything else you posted, but I think this is wrong because it presumes that the rapist has to be someone other than the parent. For very young kids, they will usually be preyed upon by their fathers, stepfathers, and other relatives. Which means they are less likely to be reported. This is why it is so easy to underestimate the prevalence of child rape. There are at least 2 or 3 Dopers who I can think of who suffered from sexual abuse as kids, and their offenders were not reported. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-really-about-power-and-not-sex/650275.md?page=4)