# Is rape the forcing of a soul tie between the rapist and victim? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2009, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008 "2009-09-05T23:55:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008/81 "2009-09-07T14:27:33Z")
> [@Blut\_Aus\_Nord](#): > > kanicbird is talking about indemnity. It’s a condition of spiritual restoration of one’s ancestors through suffering. > > Taking the most extreme example, child molestation, the child is in the position to restore the sins of his ancestry if he can bear the experience without projecting it onto others later in life. The molester, on the other hand, is now setting a course of suffering and tribulation for his descendants, although hopefully there won’t be any. > > That’s the concept of indemnity, and how it ties into the course of restoration since the Fall, but no one has had the wherewithal to restore original sin, leading to a vicious cycle. Am I right, kanicbird? While I would not state it in the way you have, I believe the basic concept is in line with the exception of the salvation of the children through Jesus. As the successive generations bear more and more sin (4 generations seem to be the limit set by God), the will cry out to God, accept Jesus (which is a marriage, the 2 (the oppressed child and Jesus are now a single person), Jesus has already paid the price of sin and that child goes free. That child may rest ‘die’ till Jesus comes, or may be taken directly up to heaven, which appears to be rarer, but IMHO still happens throughout the ages, either way all sin is removed forever from that person who will live in the Kingdom of God forever. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008/82 "2009-09-07T14:56:42Z")
> [@Captain\_Awesome](#): > > Regardless of the claim that Jesus was/is/will be always, the second covenant was not communicated for half a millennium. God’s position during this period was inherently contradictory. Even if you assume that the physical limits of space-time do not apply to Jesus, it does not alter the fact that God had communicated to mankind that the sins of the forefather both _were_ and _were not_ born by subsequent generations. Here is the transition: [QUOTE=Jer 31] 29 "In those days people will no longer say, ‘The fathers have eaten sour grapes, and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’ 30 Instead, everyone will die for his own sin; whoever eats sour grapes—his own teeth will be set on edge. 31 “The time is coming,” declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah. [/QUOTE] You used the term ‘fact’ which was also in the other post on this. God does not deal with ‘fact’, they are foolishness to Him, He deals with truths. He commands us 'do not lean on your own understanding". I feel the easiest way to see past the ‘facts’ that man has taught you is to answer the question did King David know Jesus? The conclusion that God has lead me to is regardless of what we have been taught about time, yes he must have. I can’t find it right now but there was even a direct comparison between the Lord’s Prayer and a prayer of King David, different words were used but it was a phrase by phrase direct relationship. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008/83 "2009-09-07T14:59:01Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > In my view all sin comes from a single source, the devil/Satan. Satan has given a great deal of power in the control over the world, and he has formed humanity into a pyramid (He attempted a tower, but God put a end to that), with himself at the top, with all the results of sin falling to lower and lower levels, with the people at the bottom bearing the greatest weight and with no where to place that sin on. By this pyramid Satan tried to exalt himself above God. > > My journey with the Lord made me realize that we are not made bad, and a ‘normal’ person is not ‘better’ then a homeless person, nor a criminal, we are all beloved children of God, but forced to live in this pyramid. The lower end is just under so much pressure that they can not do anything but what sin commands as they are really a slave to sin. All the people in prison, or homeless is a direct result of Satan, and not a flaw in the person, they are really bearing the punishment that Satan should receive by submitting their free will to ‘other gods’ which are not God, thereby placing themselves via free will in the pyramid. Once you are submitted you can not free yourself, though Jesus can. > > As such, unless the rapist is Satan Himself, both are victims. Satan was created by humans so they could blame someone other than themselves for the evil they do. The concept that evil comes from somewhere OUTSIDE humanity has been a huge hindrance to our species’ ability to mature. Humans often do evil. Some humans ARE evil. Satan is just a convenient excuse. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008/84 "2009-09-07T15:06:10Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Satan was created by humans so they could blame someone other than themselves for the evil they do. The concept that evil comes from somewhere OUTSIDE humanity has been a huge hindrance to our species’ ability to mature. > > Humans often do evil. Some humans ARE evil. Satan is just a convenient excuse. Satan has a strange position in Judaism. Unofficially, there are the same folk traditions as in Christianity. Officially, Satan is just a position roughly analogous to prosecuting angel and the urge to do evil comes from within our selves. ---
**Author:** ![Blut\_Aus\_Nord](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Blut\_Aus\_Nord](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blut_Aus_Nord)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008/85 "2009-09-07T15:06:24Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Satan was created by humans so they could blame someone other than themselves for the evil they do. The concept that evil comes from somewhere OUTSIDE humanity has been a huge hindrance to our species’ ability to mature. > > Humans often do evil. Some humans ARE evil. Satan is just a convenient excuse. Regardless of Satan’s existence or non-existence, he cannot be used as an “excuse” for anything. “BILLY! YOU KILLED YOUR OWN MOTHER WITH A SPORK?!” “Well gee whiz, I was influenced by Satanic spiritual forces!” “Oh, phew. THAT’S a relief.” ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008/86 "2009-09-07T15:11:56Z")
> [@Blut\_Aus\_Nord](#): > > Regardless of Satan’s existence or non-existence, he cannot be used as an “excuse” for anything. > > “BILLY! YOU KILLED YOUR OWN MOTHER WITH A SPORK?!” > > “Well gee whiz, I was influenced by Satanic spiritual forces!” > > “Oh, phew. THAT’S a relief.” I meant that Satan is used as a spiritual excuse, not a legal one. Satan is an attempt to pretend that evil is not naturally present in humans, but something that some outside force compels upon us. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008/87 "2009-09-07T15:16:45Z")
**JayJay** I just saw an ad for Tyler Perry’s new movie. It’s titled I Can Do Bad All By Myself. Perhaps it will yield some clues on this whole ‘Satan made me do it’ business. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008/88 "2009-09-07T15:18:44Z")
Rape is a Vulcan mind meld. It of course has nothing to do with sex or even power. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008/89 "2009-09-07T15:24:58Z")
What if I have a penis, but I’m genetically female? What am I? Who should I marry? Can I be raped? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008/90 "2009-09-07T15:25:40Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > I meant that Satan is used as a spiritual excuse, not a legal one. Satan is an attempt to pretend that evil is not naturally present in humans, but something that some outside force compels upon us. There are 2 forms of evil, selfishness, not caring about who you hurt, which is redeemable. And intentionally hurting and rejoicing in it, this is the type of evil that comes only from a being who has totally rejected God’s ways - in full knowledge, committed blasphemy against the Holy Spirit - This is the evil of the devil, which sometimes acts through people who have allowed the devil a foothold, but the person is not evil. > [@](#): > > Satan has a strange position in Judaism. Unofficially, there are the same folk traditions as in Christianity. Officially, Satan is just a position roughly analogous to prosecuting angel and the urge to do evil comes from within our selves. [IMHO]Basically the Judaic view is accurate but not complete. Satan is a prosecuting ‘son of God’, not a angel as we commonly think of them. Satan is a heavenly being, such as angels are, and he causes worlds to fall into sin and death so as to live. By us believing his lie we accept his death (separation from God) and He gets the blessings that God wanted for us. He tells us we are unworthy, we believe it and yield that aspect to Satan, etc. He accuses us of all types of things, actually He is the one who has committed these sins and they are just being passed down for us to bear.[/IMHO] ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008/91 "2009-09-07T15:30:33Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > What if I have a penis, but I’m genetically female? What physical body we have makes no difference to our soul. I believe we may all have male and female spiritual aspects. > [@](#): > > What am I? A person, demon, angel, devil or nephlinim. > [@](#): > > Who should I marry? That’s between you and God, but a possibility that comes to mind is a person with a vagina who is genetically male. > [@](#): > > Can I be raped? While I don’t know if a devil can be raped, all others I believe can. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008/92 "2009-09-07T15:39:59Z")
> [@Captain\_Awesome](#): > > One further point, God explicitly states, > > How do you reconcile this with your understanding? Your belief is in direct contradiction of this statement. I did have a very long typed out explanation, but that didn’t post. In God are all things, Satan didn’t create bad, he just is bad and does bad. So light and darkness are a inherent part of God . ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Awesome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Captain\_Awesome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Awesome)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008/93 "2009-09-07T15:43:36Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > God does not deal with ‘fact’, they are foolishness to Him, He deals with truths. He commands us 'do not lean on your own understanding". Leaning upon your ‘own understanding’ is the very transgression of God’s will that you are committing. You cannot define a logical solution to the paradox, so you have contrived your ‘own understanding’ in direct contradiction of Ezekiel 18:20, and God’s truth. Attempting to conflate the prayer of King David and the Lord’s Prayer does not substantiate your position, or present a scriptural case for King David’s knowledge of Jesus. Even if King David knew of Jesus, despite the lack of scriptural support, it would not resolve the paradox for the afflicted and punished, or not punished, children prior to the offering of the second covenant. You are refusing to accept God’s paradoxical truth and are trying to devise your own understanding. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008/94 "2009-09-07T15:48:34Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > What physical body we have makes no difference to our soul. I believe we may all have male and female spiritual aspects. In your view, then, it’s not always the person who, so to speak, “looks” male, who is “the” male in the marriage? (And so also concerning the “female”? [/quote] > [@](#): > > That’s between you and God, but a possibility that comes to mind is a person with a vagina who is genetically male. Awesome answer, **Kanicbird**. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Awesome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Captain\_Awesome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Awesome)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008/95 "2009-09-07T15:52:20Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > I did have a very long typed out explanation, but that didn’t post. In God are all things, Satan didn’t create bad, he just is bad and does bad. So light and darkness are a inherent part of God . So, if I understand your position, you accept that God both created evil and forms an inherent part of God’s nature. How is it moral that sinless children are punished for evil, which as a phenomena was created by God? Why is humanity punished for the evil of original sin, when this was devised by God, and was at the time something that humans had no understanding of? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008/96 "2009-09-07T16:05:14Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > In your view, then, it’s not always the person who, so to speak, “looks” male, who is “the” male in the marriage? (And so also concerning the “female”? IMHO yes I would agree ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008/97 "2009-09-07T16:07:12Z")
> [@Captain\_Awesome](#): > > So, if I understand your position, you accept that God both created evil and forms an inherent part of God’s nature. How is it moral that sinless children are punished for evil, which as a phenomena was created by God? Why is humanity punished for the evil of original sin, when this was devised by God, and was at the time something that humans had no understanding of? Not that God created evil, but good and evil are properties of God that always existed. I would WAG that God Himself is going through a refining process, as He would not put us through anything He Himself wouldn’t go through. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Awesome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Captain\_Awesome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Awesome)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008/98 "2009-09-07T16:16:03Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Not that God created evil, but good and evil are properties of God that always existed. I would WAG that God Himself is going through a refining process, as He would not put us through anything He Himself wouldn’t go through. This would be in direct contradiction of the scriptural statements outlining God’s perfection. Refining perfection is a logical impossibility. Presumably, since you do not concede that God created evil, he also did not create goodness. God is therefore not the highest moral authority available to mankind. He is merely a proxy for eternal concepts that are non-contingent upon his existence. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008/99 "2009-09-07T16:17:16Z")
> [@Captain\_Awesome](#): > > Leaning upon your ‘own understanding’ is the very transgression of God’s will that you are committing. You cannot define a logical solution to the paradox, so you have contrived your ‘own understanding’ in direct contradiction of Ezekiel 18:20, and God’s truth. > > Attempting to conflate the prayer of King David and the Lord’s Prayer does not substantiate your position, or present a scriptural case for King David’s knowledge of Jesus. Even if King David knew of Jesus, despite the lack of scriptural support, it would not resolve the paradox for the afflicted and punished, or not punished, children prior to the offering of the second covenant. You are refusing to accept God’s paradoxical truth and are trying to devise your own understanding. Jesus is the firstborn over all creation so he is has been available to everyone born after Him. And there was no one born of creation before Jesus. When He was born He became son of man, as well as son of God. [QUOTE=Colossians 1:15] He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. [/QUOTE] How does this play out. One such explanation is that Adam (Adam means man) is (also) Jesus, as Adam is identified as son of God (Luke 3:37). Though Adam ate of the fruit, he would have done so because of his love for Eve and that they were one complete being. This made Jesus’ life difficult, thorns and death to mention 2, but was the way to redeem Eve. Also God does not hold a sin against a person if the person’s heart was right, which in this it appears to me that Adam took the fruit because of his love for Eve, which God designed Adam to totally completely love Eve. Just because God won’t hold a sin against one does not mean that they are totally free and clear, as other gods may get some input. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Awesome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a698b9/32.png) [@Captain\_Awesome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Awesome)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2009, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008/100 "2009-09-07T16:27:40Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Jesus is the firstborn over all creation so he is has been available to everyone born after Him. And there was no one born of creation before Jesus. When He was born He became son of man, as well as son of God. Regardless of the scriptural support for Jesus being the firstborn over all creation, it does not allow for the redemption of sinless children punished prior to the second covenant. You have not offered a conceivable explanation. > [@kanicbird](#): > > How does this play out. One such explanation is that Adam (Adam means man) is (also) Jesus, as Adam is identified as son of God (Luke 3:37). Though Adam ate of the fruit, he would have done so because of his love for Eve and that they were one complete being. This made Jesus’ life difficult, thorns and death to mention 2, but was the way to redeem Eve. > > Also God does not hold a sin against a person if the person’s heart was right, which in this it appears to me that Adam took the fruit because of his love for Eve, which God designed Adam to totally completely love Eve. Just because God won’t hold a sin against one does not mean that they are totally free and clear, as other gods may get some input. If I am to understand your explanation, mankind is being punished for the original sin of eating an apple from the tree of knowledge, carried out by the physical manifestation of God himself. We are bearing the burden and punishment of a moral sin committed by God. This is, by any logical standard, immoral. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-rape-the-forcing-of-a-soul-tie-between-the-rapist-and-victim/509008.md?page=6)