# is raping a prostitute the same as shoplifting? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 23, 2010, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612 "2010-11-23T02:28:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612/41 "2010-11-25T02:45:38Z")
> [@MinkyBinks735](#): > > The whole concept is that you are supposed to pay for something and you “take it” but don’t pay, then what is that? stealing. stealing = shoplifting. I think we all got it. It’s not shoplifting, and the question equates a prostitute with a piece of property. ---
**Author:** ![smileybastard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@smileybastard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smileybastard)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612/42 "2010-11-25T02:55:47Z")
> [@MinkyBinks735](#): > > The whole concept is that you are supposed to pay for something and you “take it” but don’t pay, then what is that? stealing. stealing = shoplifting. More akin to holding a gun on a plumber while he fixes your sink. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612/43 "2010-11-25T02:56:33Z")
Or how attacking a boxer on the street is still assault. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612/44 "2010-11-25T02:57:28Z")
> [@MinkyBinks735](#): > > The whole concept is that you are supposed to pay for something and you “take it” but don’t pay, then what is that? stealing. stealing = shoplifting. and > [@smileybastard](#): > > More akin to holding a gun on a plumber while he fixes your sink. No, there is a distinction that you are both missing. If you agree with someone that they will provide a service and then they provide the service but you don’t pay, that is not stealing. They have a civil claim against you for payment of a debt ie for the fee that you don’t pay. It is a civil not criminal matter. It is not stealing. Stealing is where you take something from someone without their permission with intent to permanently deprive them of it. Again, ignoring the massive moral problem to which \*\*Marley23 \*\*(and numerous others) rightly allude, consensual sex with a prostitute on the basis that you will pay, then not paying, is not equivalent to stealing or shoplifting. Ignoring the fact that the agreement may be void for illegality in many jurisdictions, what the prostitute would have is an entitlement to sue you for the fee, and a criminal charge would not lie. The answer to the question in the OP is “no” for this and any number of other reasons. ---
**Author:** ![MinkyBinks735](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f19dbf/32.png) [@MinkyBinks735](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MinkyBinks735)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612/45 "2010-11-25T02:59:09Z")
> [@Princhester](#): > > and > > No, there is a distinction that you are both missing. If you agree with someone that they will provide a service and then they provide the service but you don’t pay, that is not stealing. They have a civil claim against you for payment of a debt ie for the fee that you don’t pay. It is a civil not criminal matter. It is not stealing. > > Stealing is where you take something from someone without their permission with intent to permanently deprive them of it. > > Again, ignoring the massive moral problem to which \*\*Marley23 \*\*(and numerous others) rightly allude, consensual sex with a prostitute on the basis that you will pay, then not paying, is not equivalent to stealing or shoplifting. Ignoring the fact that the agreement may be void for illegality in many jurisdictions, what the prostitute would have is an entitlement to sue you for the fee, and a criminal charge would not lie. The answer to the question in the OP is “no” for this and any number of other reasons. fair enough. I respect that ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612/46 "2010-11-25T03:12:09Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I think we all got it. It’s not shoplifting, and the question equates a prostitute with a piece of property. How does it equate a prostitute with a piece of property? She can’t legally be bought and sold; no one can hold title to her; she can’t be transported against her will; and she can’t be used a collateral to secure a loan. If you are thinking in terms of how comments made in this thread may be objectifying prostitutes, I would say that if you decide to put your body on the market for people to use as an object and do with what they will in order to satisfy their sexual urges, then being objectified pretty much goes with the territory. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612/47 "2010-11-25T03:16:00Z")
Because shoplifting has to do with property, objects. Forcing someone else to perform a service (and even that’s a stretch) is not considered shoplifting. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612/48 "2010-11-25T03:16:42Z")
There used to be an occasional problem in Thailand with prostitutes getting stiffed (no pun intended) (well, okay, I admit it’s intended) by a customer who claimed not to have any baht, dollars or pounds on him, but here, take a few thousand Italian lira or some other obscure Western currency. The girl would think she’d made out like a bandit until discovering she’d just been paid a couple of bucks after the customer was long gone. That problem largely disappeared with the widespread adoption of the euro. The girls know euros. ---
**Author:** ![smileybastard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@smileybastard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smileybastard)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612/49 "2010-11-25T03:18:53Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > How does it equate a prostitute with a piece of property? She can’t legally be bought and sold; no one can hold title to her; she can’t be transported against her will; and she can’t be used a collateral to secure a loan. If you are thinking in terms of how comments made in this thread may be objectifying prostitutes, I would say that if you decide to put your body on the market for people to use as an object and do with what they will in order to satisfy their sexual urges, then being objectified pretty much goes with the territory. A prostitute provides a service. Everything else you said is discriminatory. ---
**Author:** ![Starving\_Artist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/aeb1de/32.png) [@Starving\_Artist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Starving_Artist)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612/50 "2010-11-25T03:24:35Z")
No, it’s an observation. I merely described how people tend to think. I said nothing of my own views on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![smileybastard](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@smileybastard](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smileybastard)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612/51 "2010-11-25T03:28:10Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > No, it’s an observation. I merely described how people tend to think. I said nothing of my own views on the subject. Then I would suggest you avoid phrases like "I would say that if… " ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612/52 "2010-11-25T03:35:24Z")
> [@Starving\_Artist](#): > > How does it equate a prostitute with a piece of property? Like the OP said, the stealing theory is based on the idea that when you rape a prostitute, you’re taking something from her. But you can’t take sex from a person, and the fact that the victim is a prostitute is not implied consent that reduces the crime to petty theft. > [@](#): > > If you are thinking in terms of how comments made in this thread may be objectifying prostitutes, I would say that if you decide to put your body on the market for people to use as an object and do with what they will in order to satisfy their sexual urges, then being objectified pretty much goes with the territory. I’m talking about the premise of the question, not the comments or word choices.\* I understand people are going to look at prostitutes as sex objects. But a sex object is the object of sexual desire - still a person and not a thing. \*Although the OP did also imply the prostitute belongs to her pimp in another post. ---
**Author:** ![Gleena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@Gleena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gleena)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612/53 "2010-11-25T04:11:39Z")
In Australia - and specifically New South Wales, where prostitution is legal, it would not be shoplifting. Firstly, sex is not a thing capable of being stolen (although body parts can be, _Kelly_ (1999) QB 621; [1998] 3 All ER 741). Property capable of being stolen is a thing that has value, no matter how slight. Something nebulous, like data or sex or services of any kind, are not things. Some of these things have specifics written into the Crimes Act (NSW) 1900 to make the taking of them theft. It would be sexual assault, if it was against her will. If it was a case of consensual sex, it could still, in my opinion be sexual assault - there are cases where sex was obtained by false pretenses that have been ruled sexual assault: _Papadimitropoulos_ (1957) 98 CLR 249. In this case, the defendant told his victim that they were legally married and tricked her into having consensual sex with him. This could be (although a jury would have to decide) analougus to telling a prostitute you would pay her if she had sex with you, then refusing. In other words, in both cases the sex was obtained by a trick. If I am wrong, and it is not sexual assault, then it would be Obtaining by False Pretenses, which legislates the common law crime of Larceny by Trick in the _Crimes Act (NSW)_, ss 192B-192H, specificaly 192G: CRIMES ACT 1900 - SECT 192G Intention to defraud by false or misleading statement 192G Intention to defraud by false or misleading statement A person who dishonestly makes or publishes, or concurs in making or publishing, any statement (whether or not in writing) that is false or misleading in a material particular with the intention of: (a) obtaining property belonging to another, or (b) obtaining a financial advantage or causing a financial disadvantage, is guilty of an offence. There are no cases to test this as this is new law in NSW from last year, but I believe that (b) could be read to mean that the prostitute suffers a financial disadvantage, having provided her services on belief of a false or misleading statement. (IANAL…yet. I did come second in my Criminal Law class last semester, if that means anything at all.) ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612/54 "2010-11-25T04:50:51Z")
I’m confused about the situation that the OP is positing. Is it: 1. You have sex with a prostitute and then skip out on the bill OR 2. You drag her into the back alley, force sex on her, and walk away? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612/55 "2010-11-25T05:23:50Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I’m confused about the situation that the OP is positing. Is it: > > 1. You have sex with a prostitute and then skip out on the bill OR > > 2. You drag her into the back alley, force sex on her, and walk away? The word he used was “rape”-I’m assuming he meant just that…and for that reason I would appreciate it if people wouldn’t joke about it. ---
**Author:** ![Sofis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Sofis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofis)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612/56 "2010-11-25T05:25:10Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > So if someone hires me to mow his lawn and he doesn’t pay me, instead of a civil breach of contract, he should be charged with slavery? No, but if someone tries to hire you to mow his lawn, you refuse, and he forces you to do so at gunpoint, that’s slavery. ---
**Author:** ![Gleena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@Gleena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gleena)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 5:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612/57 "2010-11-25T05:25:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > The word he used was “rape”-I’m assuming he meant just that…and for that reason I would appreciate it if people wouldn’t joke about it. Just to make clear, the whole idea is abhorrent. My answer was purely factual/legal opinion. I wasn’t trying to imply I thought it was funny, or that the “joke” amused me in any way. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612/58 "2010-11-25T05:26:54Z")
> [@Gleena](#): > > Just to make clear, the whole idea is abhorrent. My answer was purely factual/legal opinion. > > I wasn’t trying to imply I thought it was funny, or that the “joke” amused me in any way. Of course. My comment was directed at those who were telling the “jokes”. ---
**Author:** ![ruadh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d2c977/32.png) [@ruadh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ruadh)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612/59 "2010-11-25T06:45:25Z")
> [@Gleena](#): > > If it was a case of consensual sex, it could still, in my opinion be sexual assault - there are cases where sex was obtained by false pretenses that have been ruled sexual assault: _Papadimitropoulos_ (1957) 98 CLR 249. In this case, the defendant told his victim that they were legally married and tricked her into having consensual sex with him. This could be (although a jury would have to decide) analougus to telling a prostitute you would pay her if she had sex with you, then refusing. In other words, in both cases the sex was obtained by a trick. In the _Papadimitropoulos_ case it was found that no rape had occurred, because the fraud was not as to the nature of the act. (An example of “fraud as to the nature of the act” was in _R v Williams_ where the girl was told that intercourse was a medical procedure.) The court agreed that the accused could hypothetically be guilty of a crime of procuring through fraud, but this crime did not exist in the part of Australia where the offence took place. The issue of stiffing a prostitute was dealt with in _R v Linekar_ where it was also held not to be rape, because consent had been given to the sexual act itself. And some of the posts in this thread are disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![Gleena](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b3f665/32.png) [@Gleena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gleena)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2010, 7:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612/60 "2010-11-25T07:01:56Z")
> [@ruadh](#): > > In the _Papadimitropoulos_ case it was found that no rape had occurred, because the fraud was not as to the nature of the act. (An example of “fraud as to the nature of the act” was in _R v Williams_ where the girl was told that intercourse was a medical procedure.) The court agreed that the accused could hypothetically be guilty of a crime of procuring through fraud, but this crime did not exist in the part of Australia where the offence took place. > > The issue of stiffing a prostitute was dealt with in _R v Linekar_ where it was also held not to be rape, because consent had been given to the sexual act itself. > > And some of the posts in this thread are disgusting. Agree, there’s some nasty stuff here. Thank you for your corrections, I appreciate it. Do you think the section of the Crimes Act quoted might apply? Also I was not familiar with the Linekar case, thanks for bringing it up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-raping-a-prostitute-the-same-as-shoplifting/561612.md?page=4)