# Is Ray Jessel's "What She's Got" number offensive/bigoted/transphobic? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 7, 2014, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571 "2014-07-07T20:11:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![bldysabba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@bldysabba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bldysabba)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571/61 "2014-07-18T05:06:43Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well, obviously I was being kind of sarcastic about the likelihood of producing an actual consensus on the quantitative details. More to the point, though, it matters because it gets us thinking about the assumptions we make. > > Many heterosexual males would reflexively feel that encountering a penis on a female sexual partner is “weird and gross” or some such reaction, so they assume that they’re entitled to be warned about it in advance. But are they using a consistently applied standard of “weird and gross”, or are they to some extent biased by social prejudice against transgender people? How does it matter? You can challenge them on it and try and combat it based on this argument, but it’s a separate matter from whether or not a transgender person tells them that she is transgender. As long as a substantial number do think it is ‘weird and gross’, irrespective of the source of that feeling, I think the obligation on a transgender person to tell them that they are transgender(in case they’re headed for a sexual encounter) remains. > [@](#): > > For example, would they consider it equally “weird and gross” for a grown male to have an extreme micropenis (some forms of which are actually more rare than women with penises)? If so, how small would the organ have to be to count as “weird and gross”? And why that particular size and not, say, a millimeter longer? They probably wouldn’t because they wouldn’t expect to find themselves in bed with a man in the first place, and they can avoid that situation. > [@](#): > > My point is that a lot of the perceptions we have about what does/should “make someone uneasy” are based on distinctions that are fundamentally arbitrary. Of course they’re arbitrary. What does that change? > [@](#): > > Sure: they give you the right and the obligation **to engage in only mutually consensual** sexual activities. > > IOW, if you find out that your prospective sex partner has some characteristic(s) you don’t like, or vice versa, you have the right to terminate the sexual encounter whenever you want to, and you have the obligation to accept the other person’s terminating the sexual encounter whenever they want to. How does this fit in with your (apparent) belief that a post op transperson doesn’t have the obligation to inform prospective partners about their…previous gender?(I’m not sure of the right language to express that, sorry). I think uninformed consent is not really consent. > [@](#): > > But you don’t have a right never to be surprised by some sexual characteristic that you personally find icky. Nor do you have an obligation to proactively describe every sexual characteristic of your own that you think a partner might be likely to find icky. As I said, I think you do have the right if you can reasonably be expected to find something disagreeable and you have that obligation if you have a characteristic that you can reasonably expect a prospective partner to have a problem with. There’s obviously no objectively right position on this, but there’s my opinion for what it’s worth. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571/62 "2014-07-18T06:05:42Z")
> [@bldysabba](#): > > How does it matter? […] As long as a substantial number do think it is ‘weird and gross’, irrespective of the source of that feeling, I think the obligation on a transgender person to tell them that they are transgender(in case they’re headed for a sexual encounter) remains. It matters because your personal biases and preferences don’t imply an ethical obligation on another person’s part. Lots of people think lots of physical characteristics are “weird and gross”: many US women find uncircumcised penises disgusting, for example, and in this modern age of waxing many men are grossed out by full bush on a woman. I’ve already agreed with you that it’s generally a good thing for potential sex partners to air out their quirks before getting jiggy. But that’s a far cry from saying that they’re ethically **obligated** to do so or that they’re somehow being deceitful if they don’t. > [@bldysabba](#): > > Of course they’re arbitrary. What does that change? It changes the validity of using them to justify making demands about other people’s behavior. If someone’s arguing that it’s, say, a violation of nature or the laws of God, or a serious danger to mental health, or something of that sort, for a heterosexual male to unexpectedly encounter a penis on a sex partner, then I see why they would consider it morally necessary for such a partner to warn them in advance about having a penis. But if you admit that _a woman’s penis is just one instance of various very rare and widely unappealing genital configurations_, and that _the basis on which we classify some such configurations as more significant or “weird” or “gross” than others is fundamentally arbitrary_, then the case for insisting on an ethical obligation to warn prospective sex partners about them is much weaker. > [@bldysabba](#): > > How does this fit in with your (apparent) belief that a post op transperson doesn’t have the obligation to inform prospective partners about their…previous gender?(I’m not sure of the right language to express that, sorry). It fits in fine. You have no ethical obligation to volunteer information about any (noninfectious) sexual/genital characteristics in advance. But you have the right to terminate your consent to any and all sexual activity as soon as you find out that your partner has any characteristics you don’t like. And you have the obligation to accept your partner’s terminating **their** consent as soon as they find out that you have any characteristics **they** don’t like. (Oh, and I believe the term for what a transgender person is transitioning or has transitioned away from is their “assigned gender”.) > [@bldysabba](#): > > As I said, I think you do have the right if you can reasonably be expected to find something disagreeable and you have that obligation if you have a characteristic that you can reasonably expect a prospective partner to have a problem with. And my point is that what counts as “disagreeable”, and what counts as a “reasonable expectation” of disagreeableness, is so riddled with cultural biases and subjective preferences as to be essentially useless as a realistic guide to conduct. Yes, as I said, we should certainly encourage people to get things out in the open with prospective sex partners verbally before they do so physically, so to speak. But enjoining that on them as a moral imperative is fatally vague and open-ended, IMHO. People should not end up feeling deeply betrayed or guilty just because of a difference of opinion about how “disagreeable” some characteristic or other would seem. And in particular, straight men should not worry that their manhood or masculinity or heterosexuality is somehow called into question if they happen to find out that a woman they were sexually attracted to while they believed she was cisgender in fact has (or had) a penis. Once we get rid of that particular social anxiety, most heterosexual men of course will still not be interested in having sex with women with penises, but I think a lot of the outrage and horror and anger about the possibility of finding out that a potential sex partner has a penis will dissipate. And, to bring this discussion finally back to the OP, I’m inclined to think that lighthearted and non-derogatory comic songs like “What She’s Got” seem more likely to undermine that transphobic taboo than to reinforce it. Which is IMO a good thing. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571/63 "2014-07-18T13:29:50Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > It matters because your personal biases and preferences don’t imply an ethical obligation on another person’s part. I think you mean that _some_ personal biases and preferences don’t imply an ethical obligation on other people. Some do. The difficulty is deciding which personal preferences must be respected, and which don’t. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2014, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571/64 "2014-07-18T13:32:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > The difficulty is deciding which personal preferences must be respected, and which don’t. Very true. See above re: cultural biases and subjective preferences. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571/65 "2014-07-19T12:30:59Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Many heterosexual males would reflexively feel that encountering a penis on a female sexual partner is “weird and gross” or some such reaction, so they assume that they’re entitled to be warned about it in advance. But are they using a consistently applied standard of “weird and gross”, or are they to some extent biased by social prejudice against transgender people? A large part of it has to do with prejudice against transgender persons. Why do I believe this? Because of the reaction. If a man finds himself in bed with a cisgender woman and is surprised by encountering a third nipple, excessive hair, an “ugly vagina” (men’s sites talk about this a lot), strange and disturbing tattoos, horrible odor, hidden fat, or some other physical “defect,” the reaction is typically to either grit their teeth and go through it anyways, or make an excuse and get out of the situation, and never call back. If a man finds himself in bed with a pre-op transsexual woman and is surprised by finding a penis, the reaction tends to be violent. Sometimes very violent. Sometimes deadly. This is easily Googlable and I have personal experience talking to the women who were beaten and survived. I have a personal friend who was outed during the flirting stage in a bar, who was beaten unconscious, and I know of a transwoman who lost teeth when she got into a bedroom with a man and told him prior to undressing. The difference in the reaction tells me that it’s not just “surprise,” many times it’s bias. No I can’t cite a research paper on men who got in the sack with unknown pre-op transgender women, because there are none. But it’s a simple fact in the community, and it’s why it is rare for a transwoman to try and hide it prior to sex. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571/66 "2014-07-19T12:57:18Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > The difference in the reaction tells me that it’s not just “surprise,” many times it’s bias. No I can’t cite a research paper on men who got in the sack with unknown pre-op transgender women, because there are none. Then you can’t assert it as a fact. It’s an opinion, based at best on anecdote and subject to the usual confirmation bias. You’re a scientist, you know that already. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Rune](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e68b1a/32.png) [@Rune](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rune)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571/67 "2014-07-19T13:03:07Z")
A “woman with a dick” is an oxymoron in my book. And I don’t consider post-op operation to do much to change that. I do feel bad for the person, for it’s obviously a pretty bad deck of cards to have be played by mother nature and I’m ok with going through the act of calling the person her and whatever else, and am against official and professional discrimination. But I’m not going to pretend that in my personal life I consider the person a woman. So maybe I’m transphobic according to your definition. I don’t really care. These words have long since lost all meaning and bite. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571/68 "2014-07-19T13:13:08Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Then you can’t assert it as a fact. It’s an opinion, based at best on anecdote and subject to the usual confirmation bias. You’re a scientist, you know that already. > > Regards, > Shodan That’s the point of my last sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571/69 "2014-07-19T13:17:07Z")
> [@Rune](#): > > So maybe I’m transphobic according to your definition. I don’t really care. These words have long since lost all meaning and bite. You think so? Good luck with that. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571/70 "2014-07-19T13:17:07Z")
Your last sentence claimed that it was a “simple fact in the community”, and it isn’t a fact, simple or otherwise. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571/71 "2014-07-19T13:27:56Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Your last sentence claimed that it was a “simple fact in the community”, and it isn’t a fact, simple or otherwise. > > Regards, > Shodan Ah, I see. That is my mistake then. Allow me to amend that to “it’s a simple ‘fact’ in the community.” I’ll leave my claim as opinion and wait for anyone to present a fact on the specific topic. I’m sure someone will soon… I am curious why you presume to lecture me on science when you were the touting a couple of studies showing poorer quality of life and suicide outcomes for transgender people, yet you refused to respond to my rebuttal with my technical paper which cited 29 studies in detail and reviewed more than 100. I for one admit when I make mistakes. The plural of anecdote isn’t data by any means. Anecdote in limited quantities does not become science (unless the goal of the science is to record anecdote). But handwaving it aside without any consideration is also silly and ignorant. I can imagine the thought process: “I haven’t seen peer-reviewed studies showing that not telling a male sexual partner I have a penis they aren’t expecting is no worse than not telling them I’m a cisgender woman with excessive body hair. So despite the fact I know all these other transwomen who were beaten, even murdered for doing such, I’ll continue down this path of not informing until I see a write-up in the technical journals. Q.E.D.” In other words, in the real world, when actual bodily harm and lives are at stake, sometimes an individual person has to make a judgment call for themselves based on their experience and that of others, to err on the side of caution. ---
**Author:** ![Stringbean](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Stringbean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stringbean)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571/72 "2014-07-19T21:12:32Z")
It’s so stupidly simple: apply the Golden Rule. Would you want to now before sleeping with a woman that she in fact had male genitalia? Trying to obfuscate the issue with “cultural bias” and “transphobia” is just your unwillingness to admit that, yes, in some circumstances, it is okay to pass judgement (with regard to sexual activity) on another person. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571/73 "2014-07-19T21:25:32Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > I am curious why you presume to lecture me on science when you were the touting a couple of studies showing poorer quality of life and suicide outcomes for transgender people, yet you refused to respond to my rebuttal with my technical paper which cited 29 studies in detail and reviewed more than 100. I for one admit when I make mistakes. Because your rebuttal was not much more than a restatement of your disagreement with Cecil. I was asking for evidence that SRS results in objectively-measurable improvements, such as a reduction in suicide or criminal arrests. I am not aware that you or anyone else has produced such evidence. > [@](#): > > The plural of anecdote isn’t data by any means. Anecdote in limited quantities does not become science (unless the goal of the science is to record anecdote). But handwaving it aside without any consideration is also silly and ignorant. If we are discussing science and get nothing but opinion and anecdote, refusing to concede the point is not hand-waving. > [@](#): > > In other words, in the real world, when actual bodily harm and lives are at stake, sometimes an individual person has to make a judgment call for themselves based on their experience and that of others, to err on the side of caution. I agree - transgender people should be more careful to ensure that their prospective sex partners understand the special sense in which they are using the term “woman”. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2014, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571/74 "2014-07-19T22:33:38Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because your rebuttal was not much more than a restatement of your disagreement with Cecil. I was asking for evidence that SRS results in objectively-measurable improvements, such as a reduction in suicide or criminal arrests. I am not aware that you or anyone else has produced such evidence. Then you may be thinking of the wrong thread or wrong link. From: [http://transascity.org/quality-of-life-in-treated-transsexuals/](http://transascity.org/quality-of-life-in-treated-transsexuals/) > [@](#): > > A total of 28 studies were reviewed, 27 within our established search parameters and 1 outside those parameters. Body satisfaction and mental improvements, improved social functioning, and a significant increase in quality of life resulting from hormones and/or SRS were clearly indicated in 21 of 28 studies. A decline in physical or mental health, or quality of life, was clearly indicated in 3 of 28 studies, and weak improvement or mixed or ambiguous results were indicated in 4 of 28 studies. It must be called out that the Murad study of 2010, while important due to its breadth, may contain duplicated results as it was a meta-study. Furthermore, one of the negative studies was from 1998, which was 6 years outside our original search parameters. If this study is omitted, then 78% of the studies surveyed showed positive changes from transition, 15% showed weak improvement or mixed or ambiguous results, and 7% showed negative changes from transition. > > It’s important to note that the large majority of studies found since 2004 do not address suicide risk, and among those reviewed two indicated a lower risk, and one a higher risk. So even by a metric of “suicide rates” (really now, is that how clinical psychologists assess effectiveness of all treatments, everywhere? Or by arrest records?), since 2004 the odds are against you. Honestly, I don’t want to be a bitch, but I did my time - I spent the money and time to read through and research more than a hundred papers to get to the heart of the 27+1 studies. You may think I had a preconceived or self-fulfilling thesis, but honestly I tried not to. I can’t say I had no bias, but then I can’t say that anyone has no bias. Until I see the same sort of serious legwork from anyone else, I need a more substantive, researched criticism to feel I have to defend it. My work stands on that page, and all of the references are cited. > [@](#): > > If we are discussing science and get nothing but opinion and anecdote, refusing to concede the point is not hand-waving. This is a thread about opinion and people’s versions of morality of disclosure prior to sexual relations. Almost all the posts, and even the very OP, are about **opinion.** My educated opinion is that there is transphobia involved on its face because of the typical reaction in my experience to such a revelation. I take it you aren’t asserting that the opposite is true, that there is no greater risk to a transwoman compared to a cisgender woman when a male partner has a “surprise” in bed. It’s also a logical fallacy to assume that all opinions carry the same weight. I have my hash marks working within and for the transgender community. My “opinion” is not fact but on this subject I’d say it’s worth more than any random person’s. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571/75 "2014-07-20T13:48:52Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Then you may be thinking of the wrong thread or wrong link. No, I’m not. > [@](#): > > From: [http://transascity.org/quality-of-life-in-treated-transsexuals/](http://transascity.org/quality-of-life-in-treated-transsexuals/) > So even by a metric of “suicide rates” (really now, is that how clinical psychologists assess effectiveness of all treatments, everywhere? Or by arrest records?), since 2004 the odds are against you. No, they aren’t. Two studies that show a reduction and one that shows an increase is not hard evidence of a reduction or an increase. I’ve cited this before. [“Persons with transsexualism, after sex reassignment, have considerably higher risks for mortality, suicidal behaviour, and psychiatric morbidity than the general population.”](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21364939) > [@](#): > > It’s also a logical fallacy to assume that all opinions carry the same weight. That’s true. An opinion without evidence to back it up is worth nothing, especially in GD. And an opinion based on studies from PubMed is going to be better founded than one based on a blog post. If you are attempting an argument from authority, that doesn’t work. Being transgender gives no more insight into the efficacy of SRS than having cancer qualifies you to talk about Laetrile. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571/76 "2014-07-20T20:10:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No, I’m not. > No, they aren’t. Two studies that show a reduction and one that shows an increase is not hard evidence of a reduction or an increase. in that case why do continue to claim it has no effect on suicide rates? I noted on my link ( which you refuse to read thoroughly) that very issue. Seriously, I’m not seeing an attempt even at legwork here. > [@](#): > > I’ve cited this before. And I’ve criticized it before. > [@](#): > > If you are attempting an argument from authority, that doesn’t work. Being transgender gives no more insight into the efficacy of SRS than having cancer qualifies you to talk about Laetrile. Um, I work professionally as a counselor and patient advocate, and am listed as an associate at the Institute. I also help train new counselors. I’m also trained and am a mandatory reporter as I help transwomen who are working the streets, and I am called in to high schools to assist counselors. And yes I get paid for my services although I do donate all income. You on the other hand have absolutely no qualifications or experience to speak on this subject. Think again before you start attacking my Q&E. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571/77 "2014-07-20T20:16:06Z")
…let alone the fact that you still haven’t proven why your contrived metrics of suicide and arrests trumps all the research others have done (which you still have no response to, and you haven’t even read it by your own admission that you think it’s no different from an SDMB thread rebutting Cecil) where they actually determine the quality of life improvements-which in case you forgot was the entire point of the original debate. Quality of life. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2014, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571/78 "2014-07-20T22:24:49Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > in that case why do continue to claim it has no effect on suicide rates? Because there is no good evidence that it reduces suicide. > [@](#): > > Um, I work professionally as a counselor and patient advocate, and am listed as an associate at the Institute. I also help train new counselors. I’m also trained and am a mandatory reporter as I help transwomen who are working the streets, and I am called in to high schools to assist counselors. And yes I get paid for my services although I do donate all income. That’s good. What evidence do you have that SRS reduces suicide rates? > [@](#): > > You on the other hand have absolutely no qualifications or experience to speak on this subject. Think again before you start attacking my Q&E. No one is attacking you. What evidence do you have that SRS reduces suicide rates in transsexuals? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571/79 "2014-07-21T01:00:48Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Because there is no good evidence that it reduces suicide. That’s what I said. It’s in writing. > [@](#): > > What evidence do you have that SRS reduces suicide rates? You moved the goalposts from the initial discussion. The point of the initial discussion was **Quality of Life**. I’ve proven that **quality of life is improved**. We’re in violent agreement that there is no good evidence that suicide rates are reduced. Anyone claiming that suicide rates or arrest records are _the_ criteria for success or failure is ignorant. So I go by the claims of researchers in the large majority of the studies I reviewed that **quality of life is improved**. That’s the goal. > [@](#): > > No one is attacking you. Actually you did, by the snide assertion that I knew no more about transgender treatment and science than any lay person who was also transgender. An assertion not supported by the tens of thousands of words and hundreds of citations I’ve provided on this subject over the last year. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2014, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571/80 "2014-07-21T13:49:59Z")
Do you believe that people who attempt or commit suicide, in general, are enjoying a good quality of life? Regards, Shodan [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-ray-jessels-what-shes-got-number-offensive-bigoted-transphobic/692571.md?page=5)