# Is religion a form of ignorance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003 "2017-10-27T17:35:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/182 "2017-11-01T18:07:54Z")
n/m - belaboring the joke. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/183 "2017-11-01T18:54:34Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > God waved his “magic wand”…pretty much the same way she got pregnant. Which rapidly raises the question of why he doesn’t just do that for everyone and skip the whole Jesus rigamarole. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/184 "2017-11-01T19:04:24Z")
You mean get _everyone_ pregnant? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/185 "2017-11-01T19:20:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So God withheld the “cure” for thousands of years because…? Not to mention withholding it from most of the world until the white people got there to set things right. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/186 "2017-11-01T20:52:59Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Which rapidly raises the question of why he doesn’t just do that for everyone and skip the whole Jesus rigamarole. God doesn’t owe you an explanation. He’s inscrutable. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/187 "2017-11-01T21:04:09Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The idea is that original sin contaminated the human bloodline, so that you can’t help but do bad things. It’s quite the premise, hey? My blood made me do it. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 9:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/188 "2017-11-01T21:10:50Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > ISTR reading somewhere that the Catholic teaching is that Mary, mother of Jesus was somehow born untainted by original sin. Not sure if I read correctly or how that would actually work. What you are referring to, Immaculate Conception, is an invention of the church back in the 1800’s sometime, whenever the existence of egg cells was discovered. The church said, oh shit, that means Mary’s tainted too, and so they magically made her free from sin at her own birth so that Jesus would not be tainted by OS. Because they said so, so yah, like a magic wand, but wielded by the church, not God. True story. Or true story about the big myth anyway. Immaculate Conception was not even a term until about 150 years ago. > **[Immaculate Conception](https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immaculate_Conception)** > > The Immaculate Conception is the doctrine that the Virgin Mary was free of original sin from the moment of her conception. It is one of the four Marian dogmas of the Catholic Church. Debated by medieval theologians, it was not defined as a dogma until 1854, by Pope Pius IX in the papal bull Ineffabilis Deus. While the Immaculate Conception asserts Mary's freedom from original sin, the Council of Trent, held between 1545 and 1563, had previously affirmed her freedom from personal sin.\[ The Immac... ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/189 "2017-11-01T21:23:18Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > You mean get _everyone_ pregnant? 😃 Hey, if it’s good enough for the goose… > [@QuickSilver](#): > > God doesn’t owe you an explanation. He’s inscrutable. God doesn’t owe me an explanation because God doesn’t exist, same as how I don’t expect Gandalf to appear before me and personally explain why he didn’t ask the Eagles for a lift to Minas Tirith. But if the people peddling this God/Christ mythos want me not to entertain myself picking it to pieces it’s on them to patch up their plot holes themselves. If they don’t their shoddy story is fair game for recreational dismantling. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/190 "2017-11-01T21:28:08Z")
11th Commandment: (to self) Thou shalt not post in violation of Poe’s Law. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/191 "2017-11-01T21:32:05Z")
Dangit, I got suckered. Well, at least I got to post an unprovoked snipe at the counterargument that with the eagles it was Mordor (and it’s acclaimed archers and flying nazgul) or nothing at all. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/192 "2017-11-01T22:51:40Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > God waved his “magic wand”…pretty much the same way [Mary] got pregnant. > [@begbert2](#): > > Which rapidly raises the question of why he doesn’t just do that for everyone and skip the whole Jesus rigamarole. > [@Czarcasm](#): > > You mean get _everyone_ pregnant? 😃 Oh God! Oh God! Oh God! ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/193 "2017-11-01T22:56:27Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Dangit, I got suckered. Well, at least I got to post an unprovoked snipe at the counterargument that with the eagles it was Mordor (and it’s acclaimed archers and flying **nazgul** ) or nothing at all. Dude, the N-Word? Seriously? Do you not realize that is wraithist? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/194 "2017-11-01T23:05:39Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Dude, the N-Word? Seriously? Do you not realize that is wraithist? Okay, for _that_ pun you deserve a smiting. This is the thread to request a smiting, right? ---
**Author:** ![supposedly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/7993a0/32.png) [@supposedly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/supposedly)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2017, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/195 "2017-11-03T01:05:21Z")
I 've always suspected that religionists are just extremely cautious people. As in I have no clue if there is a god. But why take a chance and go to hell or wherever.Many people cannot /will not come to grips with their lives coming to an end. Sooo. Latch onto something that promises life everlasting. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2017, 5:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/196 "2017-11-03T05:58:54Z")
> [@supposedly](#): > > I 've always suspected that religionists are just extremely cautious people. As in I have no clue if there is a god. But why take a chance and go to hell or wherever.Many people cannot /will not come to grips with their lives coming to an end. Sooo. Latch onto something that promises life everlasting. I look at it as the bookends of life: where did we come from and where are we going? I don’t think that what we believe makes any difference to those unknowable questions, but it can make a difference while we’re here living our lives. Religion can be a companion on the journey, but is that companion is just going to make you feel bad or guilty all the time, who needs it? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2017, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/197 "2017-11-03T06:06:53Z")
> [@supposedly](#): > > {…} But why take a chance {…} Please, I beg you, not Pascal’s Wager . . . anything, but not [Pascal’s Wager](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager#Criticism)! CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2017, 1:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/198 "2017-11-03T13:07:30Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Please, I beg you, not Pascal’s Wager . . . anything, but not [Pascal’s Wager](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_Wager#Criticism)! Well, you’re the one who brought it up. 🙂 **supposedly** claimed that religion is supposedly some folks’ way of not taking a chance; but Pascal’s Wager argues that you have to take a chance, and that you should take a chance on religion. And it makes what I think is a relevant and worthwhile distinction: is it rational to believe irrational things? Pascal was (arguably) saying, “Even if I can’t prove rationally that God exists (or that Christianity is true), I can prove that you ought to believe he does/it is.” It occurs to me that some religion (or some people’s approach to religion) is **sub-rational** —it’s a way of closing their eyes and sticking their fingers in their ears to what rationality would say—while some is **super-rational** —accepting what the senses reveal and the mind figures out while being open to something beyond that. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2017, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/199 "2017-11-03T16:08:37Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > … Pascal’s Wager argues that you have to take a chance, and that you should take a chance on religion. I recall Pascal’s wager (or its equivalent) as being dogmatically problematic. There was some kind of “teaching” that faith is all-important, such that if you are just going through the motions without feeling the HS or whatever, you will fail to earn a place in glorious heaven. Believe or believe not, there is no middle ground. > [@](#): > > It occurs to me that some religion (or some people’s approach to religion) is **sub-rational** —it’s a way of closing their eyes and sticking their fingers in their ears to what rationality would say—while some is **super-rational** —accepting what the senses reveal and the mind figures out while being open to something beyond that. Doctrine stuffs the unknown with answers. We move forward by discovering the unknown. If what lies beyond what we understand is already known, why should we bother? A person who knows how to learn will realize that knowledge and understanding gained reveals how vastly much more there is yet to learn. I, personally, prefer to see no horizon to discovery – that there will always be far more to learn than what we already have. A thing out there that bounds the end of all understanding is just a depressing concept. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/200 "2017-11-04T05:56:49Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Well, you’re the one who brought it up. 🙂 **supposedly** claimed that religion is supposedly some folks’ way of not taking a chance; but Pascal’s Wager argues that you have to take a chance, and that you should take a chance on religion. Not on religion - on Christianity. Now Pascal pretty much equates Christianity with religion, and that is one of the reasons the wager fails. > [@](#): > > And it makes what I think is a relevant and worthwhile distinction: is it rational to believe irrational things? Pascal was (arguably) saying, “Even if I can’t prove rationally that God exists (or that Christianity is true), I can prove that you ought to believe he does/it is.” And he failed miserably in doing so. > [@](#): > > It occurs to me that some religion (or some people’s approach to religion) is **sub-rational** —it’s a way of closing their eyes and sticking their fingers in their ears to what rationality would say—while some is **super-rational** —accepting what the senses reveal and the mind figures out while being open to something beyond that. Many atheists are open to such things - just show us the evidence. It seems many spiritual people jump from “you can’t prove there is nothing beyond reality” (maybe true) to “aha! there is something beyond reality!” (not at all likely.) ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2017, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/201 "2017-11-04T15:36:36Z")
I believing something that isn’t true a form of “ignorance?” If Joe worships Odin and Jack worships Zeus, and if both cannot be right, is one of them “ignorant?” I’ve always thought ignorance meant “not knowing something true,” not “believing something untrue.” But if it does, then, a great majority of religious people are ignorant, because their various faiths contradict each other dramatically. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003.md?page=11)