# Is religion a form of ignorance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003 "2017-10-27T17:35:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/102 "2017-10-29T03:50:43Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > What specific supernatural concept do atheists uphold? Souls? Nope. Gods? Nope. Heavens or hells? Nope. > > Religions hold supernatural beliefs; atheism doesn’t. That’s one definition. But Buddhism is a religion, and they dont always hold beliefs in a deity, in the supernatural. But another is KNOWING that you hold the right beliefs about the afterlife. No one can \*know. \* But hard core atheists preach their beliefs. They try to convert others. They hold their belief in the absence of any proof. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/103 "2017-10-29T03:52:48Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > why do you feel a need to mock other’s religion? Because they refuse to keep that shit to themselves. If they had not been trying to fling their feces in our faces all this time and try to force us to slog through the drippings, we would almost certainly be happy to ignore them. But, it is so very absurd, it is rewarding to mock it. ---
**Author:** ![nate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nate/32/13085_2.png) [@nate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nate)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/104 "2017-10-29T05:07:40Z")
To the OP, I don’t think religion will ever be wiped out… even if all the religions practiced today were to disappear, it’s human nature to search for a explanation or purpose for things to be the way they are. I know that sounds generic, but that is on purpose. I keep going back to this study on how children of a certain age range believe in purpose-driven explanations for why things are the way they are. For example, a pond exists to give animals a place to drink water. A tree exists to provide a home for squirrels. Eventually, around the age of 7-8, children start to give more non-purpose driven explanations. A pond exists because the landscape’s shape, or a tree exists because it grew from a seed. The search for a purpose is human behavior and I doubt it’ll ever change in any appreciable timespan. Some of us just don’t quite get past the purpose-driven explanations. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 5:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/105 "2017-10-29T05:22:16Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > Because they refuse to keep that shit to themselves. If they had not been trying to fling their feces in our faces all this time and try to force us to slog through the drippings, we would almost certainly be happy to ignore them. > > But, it is so very absurd, it is rewarding to mock it. My goodness. The _exact_ same thing could be said about this thread- whose purpose is to mock religion. ---
**Author:** ![SamuelA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c77e96/32.png) [@SamuelA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SamuelA)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/106 "2017-10-29T06:16:05Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > No one can \*know. \* > > But hard core atheists preach their beliefs. They try to convert others. They hold their belief in the absence of any proof. I don’t think you can be reached, but I’ve gradually become a ‘hard core’ atheist. Specifically, while I don’t know the true nature of reality, I do know the **evidence** that has been presented to me. I know that given this evidence, the **most probable** truth is that all religions invented by humans are wrong. Let me try to give you an idea of my way of thinking. Imagine you’ve been playing a game with unknown rules. You know what actions you took and what outcomes happened that you could directly observe. You discover that outcomes reported by other players without objective records (videotapes, experimental logs compiled by credentialed scientists) are not very trustworthy. You don’t know the rules to the game, but give a certain set of credible evidence, you can infer the **most probable** set of rules you can. As new evidence comes in, you update - you change your inferences. Right now, the overwhelming majority of all credible, scientific evidence says that all religions are bullshit and the laws of physics are a set of relative simple and inviolate principles. Based upon that set of data, you can only arrive at this one reasonable conclusion, and you’re a moron if you don’t. (yes, I think all religious people are at least stupid about this. I do not care what credentials society has awarded them, they are still stupid.) I have no “faith” I’m right, I don’t have to. If tomorrow, objective, credible data starts being produced that says a specific religion is true, I’ll update my beliefs. Not all at once - a little at a time as each miracle is reported on and measured and verified legitimate by trustworthy people and hard to fake data is collected. So in essence I don’t “believe” in anything but a process - of determining the most probable truth based on the available evidence. As the evidence changes, the most probable truth changes. I think religious people are stupid not because they are wrong (they could be right), but because they are reaching their conclusions despite all the facts saying something different. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 7:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/107 "2017-10-29T07:31:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > But hard core atheists preach their beliefs. They try to convert others. I think you are being very loose with your terms. The number of atheists who preach or try to convert others in the same sense that Christians do is very small. If you consider an internet debate to be preaching or an attempt at conversion, then the number is admittedly higher, but I wouldn’t call that preaching or proselytizing. > [@](#): > > They hold their belief in the absence of any proof. It would be more accurate to say they lack belief because of the absence of any proof. There are not many atheists willing to put their name to the belief that there is no god or supernatural power of any kind in the universe, because it’s self-evident that we have next to no knowledge about all but an infinitesimal fraction of the universe. Atheists are much more confident about denying the existence of a particular deity, e.g. Jesus, because the scriptures attesting to his existence are full of errors, contradictions, and unfulfilled promises and predictions. That belief is not based on absence of evidence; it is based on excellent evidence: if virtually every verifiable claim that the Bible makes is wrong, then it would be irrational to believe its unverifiable claims. As for the OP, I think the question is very badly formed. IMO every field of knowledge is ignorant about god and the afterlife, if either exists, and so the only thing special about religion is that it claims to have knowledge it doesn’t. That makes it irrational, and maybe even stupid, but no more ignorant than physics, at least as far as god is concerned. As for the practitioners of religion, they are by definition irrational too, although some are highly intelligent. But there is something about religion that bypasses the rationality switch in their brain, so that they can’t see how almost every argument they make for their religion can be made by other religions, and almost every argument they make against other religions can be made against theirs. What is really distressing is how ignorant some religious people are about their own religion. The classic example shows up on TV every few years, where some Congressman proposing a bill to get the Ten Commandments enshrined in public buildings, when asked what they are, can only name two or three. Or more recently, when anti-Muslim bigots rail against various examples of Sharia Law, blissfully ignorant that the Bible they believe in contains the same barbaric laws. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/108 "2017-10-29T09:23:48Z")
[Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus](http://www.newseum.org/exhibits/online/yes-virginia/) Read it carefully, it’s a good answer. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 10:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/109 "2017-10-29T10:37:00Z")
A couple of different ways to come at the OP: Firstly, yes religion is an incredibly daft set of beliefs, in many ways less plausible than werewolves or the tooth fairy or whatever, because at least those things are self-consistent and don’t suffer things like the problem of evil. The fact that we afford it so much respect is part of the reason that it’s persisted so long: if we were free to just call BS and openly question it, it would fall apart pretty fast. On the other hand, “ignorance” is not inherently a bad thing: we’re all ignorant of many things. If it was deserving of scorn then we should spend all our time super-scorning ourselves. What’s important is that we fight our ignorance, not revel in it. So in the past, when there were so many things that science couldn’t explain, it was somewhat understandable that people found religious hypotheses plausible. And even now, a child growing up in a religious family, I can see the cognitive weaknesses that lead them to take on their parents’ religion and try to avoid questioning it. But as adults, they \*should \*question those beliefs, and I think anyone who evaluates religion as a hypothesis, from a objective starting position, must come to the conclusion it’s illogical and there’s zero empirical evidence. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/110 "2017-10-29T14:24:05Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > Some aspects of religion - like rejecting evolution, which has indeed been done due to religion, are acts of wilful ignorance. > > Most people’s religions are, well, drilled into them by their parents. After which they engage in a game of very carefully not listening to anything that overly troubles their indoctrination. A _little_ troubling is fine, and over time they can distort their original training to include other ideas (“Hey, maybe being gay isn’t evil after all!”), but when slapped with any facts or evidence or opinions that they really don’t like, most people either ignore it or kick back hard. > > And the searches you mention for people who wander between religions are searches for answers - but often you don’t see people be too rigorous about the certainty of the answers they choose to accept. It’s generally about emotion rather than facts - “truth” as opposed to _truth_. At no point does this searching guarantee they’re avoiding making ignorant assumptions and leaps of faith. You are making a logical error. Attacking a single instance of this concern, which is not even consistent within any of the major religions, is not a valid way to declare that religion itself is therefore at fault. ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/111 "2017-10-29T14:29:55Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > What search for knowledge is this? Religion well may have started as a way of providing answers to questions which were at the time unanswerable. Nothing wrong with that Goddidit wasn’t really much wronger than solutions provided by Aristotle. > But when people started really looking for more knowledge (sometimes inspired by religion) they ran into the problem that the knowledge they found directly contradicted their faith. Some religions just refused to accept the new knowledge (creationists) some modified what the Bible meant. > For instance, while Catholics were not literalists, they definitely believed that Adam and Eve were real. Original sin kind of falls apart without them. Now I think there is some move to say that they weren’t the first people, and they didn’t live in Eden, but they were somehow the first who could make moral judgements. Probably not accurate - what I have read of this seemed quite evasive, as well it should. > > And what would you call it when the results for the quest for knowledge contradixt your faith, and you ignore them? > Two examples. I’ve read a collection of scientific papers from Copernicus to 1800. The earlier papers would almost always have a statement about how the results proved the glory of God. The later papers dropped that, as the results spoke from themselves. And then we get to Lagrange’s “I have no need for that hypothesis.” The real quest for knowledge has cut the underpinnings out of the justification for particular religions, and they have responded by greater (Fundamentalists) or lesser (Catholics) denial. Again,your reasoning is faulty, and your facts are made up. Your claim that the ONLY response to contradictory information was denial or “moving the goal posts,” is wrong. All you are doing here, is repeating poorly expressed insults. You are yourself, denying factual information as a part of your insult attack. That is, there are voluminous examples of religious people adding to the insights of science, but you pretend that non exist. Enough of this. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/112 "2017-10-29T14:39:32Z")
> [@SamuelA](#): > > the **most probable** truth is that all religions invented by humans are wrong. Many religious people would agree with this enthusiastically. They’d just add that not all religions were invented by humans. > [@](#): > > You don’t know the rules to the game, but give a certain set of credible evidence, you can infer the **most probable** set of rules you can. One big difference between religion on the one hand and both science and philosophy on the other is that the latter two are based entirely on what human beings can figure out for themselves. Religion claims to be based at least in part on revelation and/or unrepeatable special experiences. So if you reject religion in general or a specific religion (call it wrong, or BS, or ignorance) because you couldn’t have figured it out for yourself, you’re asking it to be something it never claimed to be, and doing a certain amount of question-begging. If you reject it because you think the experiences or revelations it is based on either never happened or were misinterpreted, that’s more appropriate, but also harder to verify. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/113 "2017-10-29T15:46:28Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > You are making a logical error. Attacking a single instance of this concern, which is not even consistent within any of the major religions, is not a valid way to declare that religion itself is therefore at fault. Just one instance? ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/114 "2017-10-29T15:50:53Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > I choose my religion, you have chosen yours. Hardcore Atheism, the kind that mocks other people faith, is indeed a religion. You’ve been here since 2001, and you have answers like this? Could it be, that deep inside you know many of the beliefs are ripe for ridicule, and this is a pre-emptive strike of throwing out a red herring so that you don’t have to argue any of the positions? I see Igor is also going with this too now. > [@](#): > > Hundreds of great minds and scientists have been among the faithful. Were they all “silly” in your opinion? It’s the exception to the rule in this day and age and you know it, or should know it. Leading scientists that don’t believe is higher than ever, 93% of the National Academy Scientists (NAS) that answered in a questionnaire were atheists or agnostics (mostly the former). What great scientific minds that were religious, I think it’s a safe bet they relied on the scientific method instead of finding it in religious tomes. > [@](#): > > I Have seen the Pope in Person (from afar), and shook hands with the Patriarch of the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, 1 Archbishop, several Bishops, and many reverends, rabbis, etc. > > Look, here’s a picture of the Vatican: > > [Vatican City - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vatican_City) > > Many religious leaders are well documented in history. > > So there’s plenty of "evidence. " So?! Is it the hat that does it for you? ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/115 "2017-10-29T15:54:15Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > Again,your reasoning is faulty, and your facts are made up. Your claim that the ONLY response to contradictory information was denial or “moving the goal posts,” is wrong. > > All you are doing here, is repeating poorly expressed insults. You are yourself, denying factual information as a part of your insult attack. That is, there are voluminous examples of religious people adding to the insights of science, but you pretend that non exist. > > Enough of this. It helps to be specific if you think someone got the facts wrong, not just speak generally about it, and like Dr. Deth, act like you’ve been insulted. As I was saying earlier, it’s the exception to the rule, and you ignore the majority of leading scientists today that are atheists. No need to divide, or take away from their accomplishments if they were/are religious or not. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/116 "2017-10-29T15:55:24Z")
> [@GreenWyvern](#): > > [Yes, Virginia, there is a Santa Claus](http://www.newseum.org/exhibits/online/yes-virginia/) > > Read it carefully, it’s a good answer. Cool, so now I know. When [Cecil](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/1370/is-there-a-santa-claus) answered that question a hundred years later, that was the letter the reader was referring too. So thanks for that. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/117 "2017-10-29T16:11:58Z")
> [@coffeecat](#): > > Religion has inspired great works of art, music and literature. You don’t get that from dodging black cats and not walking under ladders. Well, obviously you do since religion is basically nothing more than that. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/118 "2017-10-29T16:24:12Z")
I [encountered recently](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2017/10/22/one-sides-hate-one-hope/) the following distinction between religion and superstition: > [@](#): > > I’m reminded again of Wendell Berry’s distinction between religious faith and superstition. Faith, he says, is belief in things which cannot be proved. Superstition is belief in things that have been disproved. Religious belief, in other words, involves things that may or may not be true, while superstition involves belief in things that are demonstrably false. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/119 "2017-10-29T18:48:33Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > Again,your reasoning is faulty, and your facts are made up. Your claim that the ONLY response to contradictory information was denial or “moving the goal posts,” is wrong. > > All you are doing here, is repeating poorly expressed insults. You are yourself, denying factual information as a part of your insult attack. That is, there are voluminous examples of religious people adding to the insights of science, but you pretend that non exist. > > Enough of this. igor, It is against the rules of Great Debates to accuse another poster of lying. ‘facts made up’ certainly meets that criteria. I’m giving you a warning for this. Please don’t do it again. ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/120 "2017-10-29T19:32:46Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I [encountered recently](http://www.patheos.com/blogs/slacktivist/2017/10/22/one-sides-hate-one-hope/) the following distinction between religion and superstition: That’s a good quote. However, almost nothing in the word of religion can be proven as demonstrably true, so it might as well be the same thing as superstition. I’d better be good because the Invisible Man in the Sky is watching, and I’d better not step on a spider because it might make it rain. Those that believe what they choose to believe will brook no denial, despite mountains of evidence that what they believe simply cannot be. I regard Religion as Literature—imaginative morality tales about how things came to be, but obviously not literally true. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2017, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/121 "2017-10-29T19:51:05Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > That’s a good quote. However, almost nothing in the word of religion can be proven as demonstrably true, so it might as well be the same thing as superstition. I’d better be good because the Invisible Man in the Sky is watching, and I’d better not step on a spider because it might make it rain. Those that believe what they choose to believe will brook no denial, despite mountains of evidence that what they believe simply cannot be. I regard Religion as Literature—imaginative morality tales about how things came to be, but obviously not literally true. Really? There are no churches in your area? :dubious:Try googling one, and walking in. or fly to Italy and visit the Vatican. The Pope is on TV a lot, do you think he’s a fake news thing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003.md?page=7)