# Is religion a form of ignorance? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2017, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003 "2017-10-27T17:35:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/162 "2017-10-31T02:01:44Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > We keep restricting scope to the ways in which Christianity is wrong. The point is, all religions are wrong in the same way, in that they encourage belief in things not in evidence. It’s just that some religions are more wrong to a greater extent about certain things than others. I brought this up first, and my point was that while religion can well say that much of the Bible is allegory, some things are vital and must be literally true. No matter if the name were Adam or Ugg, if God did not directly give a command that was disobeyed, the story fails. If we are not all descended from Ugg, the story fails because we would not be tarred with the sin. Clearly the story can be allegorical, which is what I learned, but then Original Sin can’t be a central tenet of your religion. I’m not sure how many other religions collapse if some historical assertion were disproved. I’m not sure Buudhism and Hinduism do. Islam, probably, and if Abraham were a mythical ancestor, there can be no Covenant and prehaps Judaism does also. But I suspect Reform could get around that also. ---
**Author:** ![TonySinclair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/49beb7/32.png) [@TonySinclair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TonySinclair)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/163 "2017-10-31T03:36:19Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > If we are not all descended from Ugg, the story fails because we would not be tarred with the sin. Would that be the Boston Uggs, or the Long Island Uggs? ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/164 "2017-10-31T04:19:23Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > I brought this up first, and my point was that while religion can well say that much of the Bible is allegory, some things are vital and must be literally true. No matter if the name were Adam or Ugg, if God did not directly give a command that was disobeyed, the story fails. If we are not all descended from Ugg, the story fails because we would not be tarred with the sin. Clearly the story can be allegorical, which is what I learned, but then Original Sin can’t be a central tenet of your religion. > > I’m not sure how many other religions collapse if some historical assertion were disproved. I’m not sure Buudhism and Hinduism do. Islam, probably, and if Abraham were a mythical ancestor, there can be no Covenant and prehaps Judaism does also. But I suspect Reform could get around that also. Exactement, as the French would say. Without Original Sin being literally true, and Jesus being a direct descendent of Adam/Ugg (even though JC was not part of the bloodline, since he was conceived by the Holy Spirit), you would have no need for a Saviour, hence me need for JC. In fact, you would nullify both Christianity and Judaism. Probably Islam too, the third great Abrahamic religion. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/165 "2017-10-31T13:17:47Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Without Original Sin being literally true, and Jesus being a direct descendent of Adam/Ugg (even though JC was not part of the bloodline, since he was conceived by the Holy Spirit), you would have no need for a Saviour, hence me need for JC. Without Sin being true, you’d have no need of a Savior; but I don’t think that depends on any specific account of how sin originated. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/166 "2017-10-31T13:29:54Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > And there’s the paradox; they’re wrong factually, and yet they often contain great truth about the human condition. As did Shakespeare. Isn’t this how the bible should be properly treated though, as literature? Where would you rank it compared to Shakespeare’s works, Aesop’s fables, the Iliad, Odyssey and other works? ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/167 "2017-10-31T13:46:59Z")
Billions of years ago our earliest ancestors were bacterialike. Homo sapiens date back a few hundred thousands years of which we are the only extant species. There are a good dozen or so hominid species, some think 20 identified thus far, future discoveries could raise it higher. Most of us probably have a small percentage of Neanderthal DNA in us. For a true believer, none of this matters, religious texts are fluid enough not to be grounded in any factual truths, it can go from literal, to symbolic, allegoric, and other things to be classified as spiritual truths. There’s plenty that bible believers should ponder, with the main point that has been made by many on this board, and that’s what to do with original sin if Adam and Eve are allegorical figures. What purpose was the genealogies going back to Adam and Eve, if the message wasn’t to convey they were real people? What does it say about Jesus’ teachings? Does he give any indications the people in the OT were not historical? How much credence should Jesus be given on anything, particularly on promises of an afterlife, when he knew so little about this one? ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/168 "2017-10-31T13:47:40Z")
> [@razncain](#): > > As did Shakespeare. Isn’t this how the bible should be properly treated though, as literature? Where would you rank it compared to Shakespeare’s works, Aesop’s fables, the Iliad, Odyssey and other works? It’s pretty poorly written. Too many sentences start with “And.” But the stories themselves have stood the test of time, so there’s that. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/169 "2017-10-31T15:02:53Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > It’s pretty poorly written. Too many sentences start with “And.” Or, it’s a [literary device](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysyndeton). ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/170 "2017-10-31T16:52:05Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Or, it’s a [literary device](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polysyndeton). And it is good to know there’s a name for it. And it still strikes me as a weak kind of writing. And so it is written, and so it shall be done. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/171 "2017-10-31T17:01:23Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > And it is good to know there’s a name for it. And it still strikes me as a weak kind of writing. And so it is written, and so it shall be done. And who shall I say is calling? ---
**Author:** ![Biffster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biffster/32/339_2.png) [@Biffster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffster)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/172 "2017-10-31T19:15:48Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > And who shall I say is calling? And I see what you did there. And it was good. ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2017, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/173 "2017-10-31T19:53:36Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Without Sin being true, you’d have no need of a Savior; but I don’t think that depends on any specific account of how sin originated. The Genesis story, interpreted as allegory, has a gaping logical flaw. Jehovallah told Adam and Eve that they were not to eat of the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. They were innocent and not vested with that understanding. The serpent convinced Eve that it would be OK, and Eve convinced Adam to taste it. But being ignorant of that knowledge prior to lunch, they could not have “sinned”, because they did not understand the concept. Jehovallah told them, “this stuff is poison”, the serpent told them, “that guy is so full of shit”. They had existed for a very short time. How would they know who to trust? (And, ultimately, it turned out that the Big Guy was in fact lying to them.) Then, of course, Eve chowed down and should have immediately realized therewith that it would be wrong to corrupt Adam with the fruit, but she went ahead and did it anyway. What should we make of that? Does it not strongly imply that women are the reason that men sin? No matter how you edit it, the story falls flat. It persisted for centuries as the guiding myth because there was one bible, maybe two, in every town, and many followers rarely ever saw the book or could even read it. Told verbally, the clerics could get away with bullshitting their way through it, but, upon closer examination, the entire text just falls apart. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/174 "2017-11-01T02:50:17Z")
> [@TonySinclair](#): > > Would that be the Boston Uggs, or the Long Island Uggs? The Boston Uggs speak only to the Lodges, and the Lodges speak only to God. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/175 "2017-11-01T02:52:57Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Exactement, as the French would say. Without Original Sin being literally true, and Jesus being a direct descendent of Adam/Ugg (even though JC was not part of the bloodline, since he was conceived by the Holy Spirit), you would have no need for a Saviour, hence me need for JC. In fact, you would nullify both Christianity and Judaism. Probably Islam too, the third great Abrahamic religion. As I said, the Adam and Eve story is not that important in Judaism. When I used to go to Yom Kippur services, I prayed for forgiveness of my since (directly to God) not for forgiveness of Adam and Eve’s sins. I don’t know about Islam. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 2:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/176 "2017-11-01T02:58:56Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Without Sin being true, you’d have no need of a Savior; but I don’t think that depends on any specific account of how sin originated. If God made us with sin inherent in us, and then sends us to hell for being sinful, unless we bow down to Jesus, God is being a real shit. Not to mention the problem of why we can’t pray directly to God, like in Judaism, but have to go through a midele man I mean deity. I understand that there are some things that it is logically impossible to ask God to do, but this isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Hector\_St\_Clare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5ac83/32.png) [@Hector\_St\_Clare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hector_St_Clare)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/177 "2017-11-01T15:50:24Z")
> [@Biffster](#): > > Original Sin is a BS premise in any event. So let me get this straight: ever since I was born I’ve been tainted by some terrible sin of disobedience that someone I never even met or knew about did thousands of years ago. At least Santa is supposed to give coal to kids who actually DID something bad. If Original Sin is true, then God is prejudiced. The idea is that original sin contaminated the human bloodline, so that you can’t help but do bad things. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/178 "2017-11-01T15:56:48Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The idea is that original sin contaminated the human bloodline, so that you can’t help but do bad things. So God withheld the “cure” for thousands of years because…? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/179 "2017-11-01T16:06:15Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The idea is that original sin contaminated the human bloodline, so that you can’t help but do bad things. So we are born sick by god’s own hand, and then, on pain of eternal punishment, commanded to be well. (~ C.H.) ---
**Author:** ![eschereal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eschereal/32/18939_2.png) [@eschereal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eschereal)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/180 "2017-11-01T17:47:55Z")
> [@Hector\_St\_Clare](#): > > The idea is that original sin contaminated the human bloodline, so that you can’t help but do bad things. ISTR reading somewhere that the Catholic teaching is that Mary, mother of Jesus was somehow born untainted by original sin. Not sure if I read correctly or how that would actually work. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2017, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003/181 "2017-11-01T17:51:54Z")
> [@eschereal](#): > > ISTR reading somewhere that the Catholic teaching is that Mary, mother of Jesus was somehow born untainted by original sin. Not sure if I read correctly or how that would actually work. God waved his “magic wand”…pretty much the same way she got pregnant. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-a-form-of-ignorance/800003.md?page=10)