# Is Religion Evil? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 11, 2001, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-evil/80893 "2001-09-11T18:33:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 12\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2001, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-evil/80893/61 "2001-09-15T15:39:13Z")
**gr8guy** > [@](#): > > You chose a definition. One among many, one that does not well mesh with a common understanding of religion; I suspect Czarcasm is far closer to definining religion the way Joe Average would than you are. Joe Average doesn’t spend much time in Great Debates. One expects the level of intellect here to be a cut above. As I explained in some detail, Czar (and some others) want it both ways. Religion is what Average Joe says it is, but natural selection and evolution are not. Phooey. > [@](#): > > Obviousy enough, there was no way to know what exactly Czarcasm meant when he described you as religious, there was no way for him to know what you meant when you used the word until you bothered to actually define it to him. Given that, I’m not seeing how he was being any more deliberately insulting in describing you as religious than you have been in describing him as ignorant. He knew. If you search my posts, you will find where I have condemned religion consistently since I first began here. He is an old-timer. Like me. **Czar** > [@](#): > > I understand you. Somehow, I doubt that. > [@](#): > > Everyone else has “religion”, which seems to you to be something bad. Good thing I was skeptical. Those are your words, not mine. I said that the people Jesus spoke to (censured) are religious. I said nothing about everyone else. Your tactic of misstating, and then attacking your own misstatement is beneath even you. > [@](#): > > You’ve got “God”. Nonsense. My relation with God is not genitive. It is ablative. > [@](#): > > I’ve insulted you by saying you were religious. That’s right. And you’ve done it because you enjoy it. > [@](#): > > Y’know, you could always start a BBQ Pit thread about how I’ve insulted you. On the other hand, that’s where you could have taken your insult. One would think you would know that. > [@](#): > > Ghod knows, after the last couple of days I could use the levity that would ensue. Exactly my point. Your usage of “Ghod” is intended to harm and insult. Your derision of my viewpoint is intended to harm and insult. Your dismissal of your own frivolity is intended to harm and insult. You’re masturbating to fantasies of pissing me off. Infantile. Sub-infantile. And you are still ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2001, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-evil/80893/62 "2001-09-16T01:24:48Z")
I use the word “ghod” to refer to all possible gods, goddesses, godlings, half-gods and whatever god-aspects that various people can and do believe in. I did not call you “religious” in a Pit thread because only you consider it to be an insulting term. I do believe I understand _some_ of the highly irregular definitions you give words, but not agreeing to those definitions does not make me ignorant. For direct insults in _this_ thread, one has only to refer to your postings. ---
**Author:** ![Homebrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/c89c15/32.png) [@Homebrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Homebrew)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2001, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-evil/80893/63 "2001-09-16T03:39:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by g8rguy \* > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Czarcasm_ > > While I fully realize that religion is not the sole source of the worlds great wars and massacres, I still believe that it is the source that is the most difficult to overcome. > > Indubitably. People will do many many terrible things in the _name_ of religion. Once you have them convinced that what they’re doing is just and right and is what their religion tells them to do, you’ll likely have no luck convincing them otherwise. > > [snip] > But I won’t argue the point in general; it often is hard to question religious leaders. Why, though, is this not _at least_ as attributable to ignorance as to religion? Do people follow Jerry Falwell because he’s a terrific exemplar of Christianity or do they follow him because it’s easier to let him tell them what to do and think than to think for themselves? \*\* It seems that violence is very entrenched in the history of some religions, especially Christianity, Judaism and Islam. Therefore violence is easily accepted by many of the adherents of these religions. In an email discussion list to which I subscribe, a participant mentioned a similarity between the major religions involved in the Mid-East troubles. The writer said (in part) > [@](#): > > But each of the major religions involved in the conflict (Christianity, Islam, and Judaism) trace their origins back to a man who proved his worth to God by his willingingness to kill his son at God’s behest. No religion that originated with a willingness to murder on behalf of God can be “perverted” by hatred and violence in the name of God. > > ``` > Religious superstition is the fertilizer which nurtures fanatic hatred and violence and those who promote religious superstition share responsibility for the actions of those who are motivated by religious superstition. Fanatic hatred and violence is no more a "perversion" of religion than a poisonous toadstool is a "perversion" of the dunghill on which it grows. > > ``` Respondents to this message mentioned modern interpretations of the sacrifice of Isaac. Not to be daunted the original writer replied (in part) > [@](#): > > I also don’t doubt that modern scholarship reinterprets the story of Abraham and Isaac. I have never seen anything that a determined theologian couldn’t reinterpret. But the fact remains that throughout the worlds of Christianity, Islam, and Judaism that Abraham is honored for his willingness to kill at the request of God. There is no mystery why the hallmark of saintliness for religion is the willingness to kill or to die for the faith. The writer seems to me to have hit upon a very basic flaw in these religions. So maybe my original question should be are Christianity, Judaism and Islam fatally flawed? ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2001, 8:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-evil/80893/64 "2001-09-16T08:11:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Guinastasia \* > \*\*Well, let’s see, Stalin, Lenin, Hitler and Mussolini were all atheists! Let’s blame all the atheists! > > :rolleyes: \*\* Not according to this site: [http://www.ffrf.org/pennstation/hitler.html](http://www.ffrf.org/pennstation/hitler.html) > [@](#): > > You will find it in Mein Kampf.- “Therefore, I am convinced that I am acting as the agent of our Creator. By fighting off the Jews, I am doing the Lord’s work.” > > Hitler said it again at a Nazi Christmas celebration in 1926: “Christ was the greatest early fighter in the battle against the world enemy, the Jews . . . The work that Christ started but could not finish, I–Adolf Hitler–will conclude.” > > In a Reichstag speech in 1938, Hitler again echoed the religious origins of his crusade. "I believe today that I am acting in the sense of the Almighty Creator. By warding off the Jews, I am fighting for the Lord’s work. " > > Hitler regarded himself as a Catholic until he died. “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so,” he told Gerhard Engel, one of his generals, in 1941. > > There was really no reason for Hitler to doubt his good standing as a Catholic. The Catholic press In Germany was eager to curry his favor, and the princes of the Catholic Church never asked for his excommunication. Religions encourage their followers to hold authority in unquestioning respect; this is what makes devout religionists such wonderful dupes for dictators. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2001, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-evil/80893/65 "2001-09-16T09:09:27Z")
**Czar** I love you. You’re bellicose at times, but you’re not a bad guy. We all masturbate now and then. And hey, I’m a very easy target for the fantasy. It’s my lot in life. I apologize for calling you ignorant. I refuse to accept the label of religous. Peace. ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-evil/80893/66 "2001-09-17T16:39:55Z")
> [@](#): > > I don’t believe it’s ignorance-it’s more a case of indoctrination. If you can catch them at an early enough age, and isolate them from other points of view long enough, sometimes no amount of information can overcome the wall of religion. See, I view the two (ignorance and indoctrination) as two sides of the same coin. Indoctrination can only succeed where there IS ignorance, I would argue. It relies on the indoctrinees not thinking critically. That some people find it exceedingly difficult to do so because they are trapped inside their indoctrination before they develop critical thinking skills is a crime. But I maintain the inability to overcome any “wall of religion” is a sign that an indoctrinated ignorance has overcome the light of reason. When people let other people tell them how to think, they are ultimately letting ignorance rule their lives, even IF there is a great deal of pressure to do just that. That this happens with religion is significant, but hardly damning of religion; it’s an indictment of people, not of a belief. > [@](#): > > It seems that violence is very entrenched in the history of some religions, especially Christianity, Judaism and Islam. Therefore violence is easily accepted by many of the adherents of these religions. Hmm… There is an element of truth to this, no doubt. Of course, violence is very entrenched in history, period; it’s a part of human nature. The way people perceive violence has changed through the centuries, but I would note that such things as “thou shalt not kill” have been around for centuries as well. Christianity very much proclaims such things as turning the other cheek and what not. People struggle with this; I don’t turn the other cheek well myself. But to say that religions suggest violence as a solution is disingeneous. The religions listed above suggest violence is NOT a solution (if I understand Judaism and Islam correctly). People are violent anyway, and what I’m just not understanding is any statement that says that when people are violent, it’s the fault of religion and not of those people. > [@](#): > > The writer seems to me to have hit upon a very basic flaw in these religions. So maybe my original question should be are Christianity, Judaism and Islam fatally flawed? This is interesting. The suggested flaw seems to be that people are to put religion above morality, and that if Czar’s ghod commands people to go forth and slay, followers of ghod darn well better go forth and slay. My only response here is that if ghod tells me to go forth and slay, I’m telling him to do something that for me would be anatomically impossible. However, to address the actual question, I’m not sure that these religions are fatally flawed (I’ll have to give it some thought). Abraham is honored because he is willing to kill for God, but you’ll note that he never actually DOES. If it was a good thing to kill for God and God said “kill for me,” then we’d have a problem. But God doesn’t (not seriously, I mean). He wants people to put religion above moral concerns, but if the religion itself stresses a moral code that no one could live up to anyway, I’m not SURE that I see this as a problem. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-evil/80893/67 "2001-09-17T17:55:51Z")
> [@](#): > > If it was a good thing to kill for God and God said “kill for me,” then we’d have a problem. But God doesn’t (not seriously, I mean). Oh, so he wasn’t serious here? [Josh 10:38] Then Joshua, with all Israel, turned back to Debir and assaulted it, ``` [Josh 10:39] and he took it with its king and all its towns; and they smote them with the edge of the sword, and utterly destroyed every person in it; he left none remaining; as he had done to Hebron and to Libnah and its king, so he did to Debir and to its king. [Josh 10:40] So Joshua defeated the whole land, the hill country and the Negeb and the lowland and the slopes, and all their kings; he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the LORD God of Israel commanded. ``` > [@](#): > > Abraham is honored because he is willing to kill for God, but you’ll note that he never actually DOES. I have to admit I kind of wonder about the “oh, just kidding” variant of the Abraham and Issac story. It sounds as if you are arguing that you should be willing to kill for God, but a special sort of willing that results in, well, not actually being willing to kill. Which doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![bserum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6de8d8/32.png) [@bserum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bserum)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-evil/80893/68 "2001-09-17T19:42:14Z")
Religion: - For people whose lives are full of hardship, it offers hope. - For people who seek to manipulate others, it offers a cloak of righteousness. - For people of dubious morals, it offers a measuring stick against which they will be judged. As your computer, as a car, as a weapon, as a piece of tree branch, mankind can use it for noble construction or horrible destruction. Don’t blame religion, blame the individuals who would use it and other means to justify their crimes. * * * Intolerance. Intolerance of other people’s religion or lack thereof… well, that’s a different story. ---
**Author:** ![g8rguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/7cd45c/32.png) [@g8rguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/g8rguy)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-evil/80893/69 "2001-09-17T19:49:31Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh, so he wasn’t serious here? Oof. Uhmm… God has a sense of humor and Joshua didn’t get the joke? _nervous grin_ I dunno. Like I said, I haven’t given much thought to this story. Shows what you get when you don’t stop to think, huh? Obviously, God appears different in the OT than he does in the NT; I’ve always had trouble reconciling the two myself, and I’ll have to think about this a bit more. (Full disclosure: I am closer to a deist than anything else, and an unfortunately lapsed one at that, so my religious thinking can be appallingly fuzzy at times. I’m mostly objecting here to the blanket assertion that an idea or concept is inherently evil, not trying to be an apologist for a specific religion.) > [@](#): > > I have to admit I kind of wonder about the “oh, just kidding” variant of the Abraham and Issac story. It sounds as if you are arguing that you should be willing to kill for God, but a special sort of willing that results in, well, not actually being willing to kill. Which doesn’t make sense. No, I’m not arguing that you should be willing to kill for God, personally, because murder is wrong (I do not presume to speak for all religious people, mind you, and I assume that many extremists ARE willing to kill for God). You see, it’s kind of a moot issue for me, because I can’t conceive of God asking me to go murder someone. If I thought I WAS being asked to do so, then I would have more than ample reason to stop following said god. I suppose I’m saying that I don’t let religion trump morality; an immoral faith is one I couldn’t follow. YMMV, but it’s this that I’m arguing for. If a faith DOES advocate doing something as immoral as murder, then I would consider that faith to be evil, but it does not then follow that all faiths are evil. (I view faith as a largely personal thing, with each individual’s faith being unique.) ---
**Author:** ![Wolverine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/ba9def/32.png) [@Wolverine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wolverine)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-evil/80893/70 "2001-09-17T20:48:17Z")
Don’t quite have the time to make a full response to the Abraham/God ordering murder idea. Let me direct you to a website about Soren Kierkegaard. He wrote a very good book called _Fear and Trembling_. In it, he addresses this problem and the website discusses and summarizes the book. [Fear and Trembling](http://www.webcom.com/kierke/bio/writer2.html) ---
**Author:** ![Spamagnet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58f4c7/32.png) [@Spamagnet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spamagnet)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 2001, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-evil/80893/71 "2001-09-17T22:08:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gaudere \* > **I have to admit I kind of wonder about the “oh, just kidding” variant of the Abraham and Issac story.** Truthfully, that has always bothered me too. That and the slaughtering of entire populations in the Old Testament. But then you run across the book of Jonah (still in the Old Testament) and it’s really almost funny. Unfortunately, most people don’t make it past the fish part of the story. Basically, it’s a story about a prophet who gets pissed with God. God tells him to go preach to a nation who has been killing his people. Jonah tells God to shove it and heads off the other direction. God sends the fish (you know this part) and he ends up at the door of the capital city of this nation he hates. He preaches there against his will – you can almost hear him saying “God says he’s going to destroy you unless you repent! And I hope you **don’t!!!** ” The people do repent and God spares them. Jonah is even more furious with God: > [@](#): > > **Jonah 4:1-4** > This change of plans upset Jonah, and he became very angry. So he complained to the LORD about it: “Didn’t I say before I left home that you would do this, LORD? That is why I ran away to Tarshish! I knew that you were a gracious and compassionate God, slow to get angry and filled with unfailing love. I knew how easily you could cancel your plans for destroying these people. Just kill me now, LORD! I’d rather be dead than alive because nothing I predicted is going to happen.” > > The LORD replied, “Is it right for you to be angry about this?” The people who twist the Bible into justification for hate, killing and all the rest have managed to ignore verses like this and explain them away. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2001, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-evil/80893/72 "2001-09-18T00:04:17Z")
I don’t think it’s a case of them ignoring verses-it’s more a case of them picking the verses they wish to follow. The Bible is a large book of histories, fables, lore and rules written over a long period of time by a great number of people. IMHO, it never should have been gathered together in a single volume and presented as a singlar religion-there are far too many contradictions presented as to the nature of Man, Sin, History, and God. You may say that people that do not read the Bible as you do are not true Christians, and they may say the same of you. Unfortunately, the version of the Bible that has the important parts Hi-lighted in red seems to be missing from the library. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-evil/80893.md?page=3)