# Is religion just wish-fulfillment? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 5, 2010, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775 "2010-02-05T07:59:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/281 "2010-02-16T19:14:51Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I’d say that you’ve just shown that a person _does_ either have an interest or has no interest, but there’s more than one way to have an interest. (And presumably more than one way not to.) More or less. It’s a comparison, so it must break down at some point. But the overriding point is that belief is not either/or. I am not required to believe in God just because I don’t disbelieve. Nor vice versa. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/282 "2010-02-16T19:42:18Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > More or less. It’s a comparison, so it must break down at some point. But the overriding point is that belief is not either/or. I am not required to believe in God just because I don’t disbelieve. Nor vice versa. Whereas I think the comparison doesn’t break down, and you have to either believe in any given god or not. There are difference _kinds_ of disbelief, from absolute burning certainty in its non-existence to a tepid apathetic lack of belief, but both are disbeliefs of different kinds. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/283 "2010-02-16T20:33:01Z")
> [@Some\_Schmo](#): > > I’m not “trying to mischaracterize the atheist position.” I’m an atheist, and I’m not mischaracterizing my own position. However you realise that you’re using an argument that is very popular among theists. Equating atheism to a belief is virtually identical to calling it a _faith_, which theists like to do because it makes atheism seem arbitrary and a choice. > [@](#): > > I’m not sure what’s so difficult to understand here, nor do I understand what the big deal is. Why is it so difficult for certain atheists to admit that? Well basically it’s difficult for me to admit because it’s not my position. I don’t have a “belief” about god’s nonexistence. I don’t know. Most atheists I know have the same opinion (except perhaps wrt logically inconsistent gods, which most would rule out). ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/284 "2010-02-16T21:56:25Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > However you realise that you’re using an argument that is very popular among theists. > Equating atheism to a belief is virtually identical to calling it a _faith_, which theists like to do because it makes atheism seem arbitrary and a choice. You think _belief_ is identical to _faith_? Really? I’m often try to avoid the word “belief” because it has so many different connotations that aren’t always clearly distinguished. I thought, however, that one of the most common, and the standard meaning in philosophy, was simply _a propostion held to be true._ “One and one make two,” “The capital of South Dakota is Pierre,” “The speed of light in a vaccuum is about 300,000 km/sec”: most people would agree that these are all true beliefs. I don’t hold any of them on faith, except in the sense that I trust there isn’t a vast conspiracy to delude me about them. They are rational beliefs that I hold for rational reasons. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > Well basically it’s difficult for me to admit because it’s not my position. > I don’t have a “belief” about god’s nonexistence. I don’t know. > > Most atheists I know have the same opinion (except perhaps wrt logically inconsistent gods, which most would rule out). \*\*Most people I know do have at least some inking of a belief about whether or not God exists. The few who really claim to have no belief one way or the other typically identify themselves as agnostic and not as atheist. Everyone I’ve ever met (including myself) who identifies as an atheist also believes God does not exist. They might not be absolutely certain, but it is how they lean. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/285 "2010-02-16T22:07:13Z")
Too late to add on edit: I’m not absolutely certain about Pierre. I don’t have the news on right now, so maybe they just moved it. Or maybe it’s one of those things everyone gets wrong (like the capital of Australia) and someone vandalized Wikipedia to conform to the popular misconception. (I did at least check Wikipedia to be sure I was right!) Either way, though, I’m _almost_ as likely to be right about Pierre, South Dakota as I am about God. I find the evidence that God does not exist slightly more compelling than the evidence I have on hand that Pierre really is the capital of South Dakota. I’m certain enough of both to take a stance, however shaky. In fact, I’m certain enough to claim I “know” both to be true, even though I might be wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/286 "2010-02-16T22:52:27Z")
> [@Alan\_Smithee](#): > > You think _belief_ is identical to _faith_? Really? No. I forgot to add the connecting piece of the argument: that you can’t prove a negative. So the argument runs: 1. Atheists _believe_ that there is no god. 2. It’s not possible to prove the absence of something. 3. Therefore there is no proof of the atheist position. 4. Therefore it’s a faith. An arbitrary choice. > [@](#): > > Most people I know do have at least some inking of a belief about whether or not God exists. The few who really claim to have no belief one way or the other typically identify themselves as agnostic and not as atheist. Well, it comes down to semantics. For me, I prefer not to call myself agnostic, as that is often (implictly) parsed as “I could come down on either side. It’s 50-50 whether god exists” – when this is far from my position. I prefer to sum up my position as: “I do not believe in god” “I do not claim to _know_ god does not exist” ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/287 "2010-02-16T22:56:43Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > No. > I forgot to add the connecting piece of the argument: that you can’t prove a negative. > > So the argument runs: > > 1. Atheists _believe_ that there is no god. > 2. It’s not possible to prove the absence of something. > 3. Therefore there is no proof of the atheist position. > 4. Therefore it’s a faith. An arbitrary choice. How does this differ from the issue of healing crystals, unicorns, leprechauns, and telepathy? Do people who don’t believe in unicorns subscribe to a certain faith? Are their world views defined by what they don’t believe in? ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/288 "2010-02-16T22:58:13Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > No. > I forgot to add the connecting piece of the argument: that you can’t prove a negative. > > So the argument runs: > > 1. Atheists _believe_ that there is no god. > 2. It’s not possible to prove the absence of something. > 3. Therefore there is no proof of the atheist position. > 4. Therefore it’s a faith. An arbitrary choice. 1. People _believe_ that they’re not about to spontanously turn into rabbits. 2. [altered to a true statement] The fact that people haven’t been seen turning into rabbits doesn’t _prove_ that they’re not about to start doing so. 3. Therefore there is no proof that they’re not about to spontanously turn into rabbits. 4. Therefore it’s a faith. An arbitrary choice. > [@Mijin](#): > > Well, it comes down to semantics. For me, I prefer not to call myself agnostic, as that is often (implictly) parsed as “I could come down on either side. It’s 50-50 whether god exists” – when this is far from my position. > > I prefer to sum up my position as: > “I do not believe in god” > “I do not claim to _know_ god does not exist” Hey, that’s the (soft) atheist position! ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/289 "2010-02-16T23:08:23Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > How does this differ from the issue of healing crystals, unicorns, leprechauns, and telepathy? > [@begbert2](#): > > 1. People believe that they’re not about to spontanously turn into rabbits. > 2. [altered to a true statement] The fact that people haven’t been seen turning into rabbits doesn’t prove that they’re not about to start doing so. > 3. Therefore there is no proof that they’re not about to spontanously turn into rabbits. > 4. Therefore it’s a faith. An arbitrary choice. Just so we’re clear: I was summarising an argument often used against atheists. It’s an argument based on a number of misconceptions in my view. It annoys me because I hear/read it often in situations where there isn’t an atheist around to respond or they are not given the opportunity to do so. Thus much of the public believes Atheist=Know it all, claims to know that there is no god. Agnostic=On the fence, exactly in the middle between atheist and theist. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/290 "2010-02-16T23:35:30Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Just so we’re clear: I was summarising an argument often used against atheists. It’s an argument based on a number of misconceptions in my view. > > It annoys me because I hear/read it often in situations where there isn’t an atheist around to respond or they are not given the opportunity to do so. > > Thus much of the public believes > Atheist=Know it all, claims to know that there is no god. > Agnostic=On the fence, exactly in the middle between atheist and theist. I took you out of context. I apologize. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/291 "2010-02-17T01:04:17Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > It annoys me because I hear/read it often in situations where there isn’t an atheist around to respond or they are not given the opportunity to do so. > > Thus much of the public believes > Atheist=Know it all, claims to know that there is no god. > Agnostic=On the fence, exactly in the middle between atheist and theist. That’s a good summary, and all too accurate. So, the public view is that anyone who doesn’t believe in god is either on the fence, and is a good candidate for conversion, or is a know-it-all schmuck who of course can’t prove his position. Atheism as a valid and provisional belief is not a choice they recognize. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Schmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Some\_Schmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Schmo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/292 "2010-02-17T15:35:10Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > However you realise that you’re using an argument that is very popular among theists. > Equating atheism to a belief is virtually identical to calling it a _faith_, which theists like to do because it makes atheism seem arbitrary and a choice. I suspected your reluctance (and probably that of most people arguing the same thing) was born out of a need to avoid a theist’s argument. Trying to construct a point of view in response to what a theist thinks is not the way to properly perceive the reality of your position. As I’ve asked before; who cares what a theist thinks? If they want to call what I believe a faith, they can. I can’t control what they believe (otherwise, they wouldn’t believe in god in the first place). They have faith that I have faith. They live off that shit. I don’t care. It doesn’t make them right any more than believing there are no fairies is a faith. > [@Mijin](#): > > Well basically it’s difficult for me to admit because it’s not my position. > I don’t have a “belief” about god’s nonexistence. I don’t know. Well, you sound agnostic to me. > [@Mijin](#): > > Most atheists I know have the same opinion (except perhaps wrt logically inconsistent gods, which most would rule out). Really? Most atheists I know would easily admit they believe there’s no god. Of course, they aren’t trying to score points with theists. I mean, let’s look at the practicality of this atheist argument. “Do you believe there’s a god?” “No.” “Do you believe there’s no god?” “No.” “So you’ve never heard of god?” “No, I just don’t believe there’s no god, just like I don’t believe there is one.” “Huh?” * * * Let’s change the subject. “Do you believe there’s a tooth fairy?” “No.” “Do you believe there’s no tooth fairy?” “No.” “So you’ve never heard of the tooth fairy?” “No, I just don’t believe there’s no tooth fairy, just like I don’t believe there is one.” “Huh?” With respect to the tooth fairy, doesn’t it sound ridiculous? It sure does to me, just as it does when the subject is god. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Schmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Some\_Schmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Schmo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/293 "2010-02-17T15:48:58Z")
You know, this whole argument sounds like atheist apologetics to me. “I don’t have a belief” sounds just as twisted and impractical as arguments for faith and theism. The way to win arguments with theists is to simply be real, not come up with abstract mental constructs that have little resemblance to reality. > [@](#): > > Equating atheism to a belief is virtually identical to calling it a faith, which theists like to do because it makes atheism seem arbitrary and a choice. I meant to comment on this specifically before: I knew there had to be some semantic interpretation of this word that has been getting in the way of agreement on this matter. The above quote is likely an extreme case, but I’m pretty sure that the problem most atheists are having here is that they have a problem with the word “belief” as though it somehow only applies to improvable things (or something). ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/294 "2010-02-17T16:30:53Z")
> [@Some\_Schmo](#): > > I suspected your reluctance (and probably that of most people arguing the same thing) was born out of a need to avoid a theist’s argument. Trying to construct a point of view in response to what a theist thinks is not the way to properly perceive the reality of your position. The point is, I want to clearly state my position without being misunderstood. “Belief” by most definitions misstates my position. And if someone asks “Do you believe that there is no god?” the answer is “No”, based on the most likely interpretation of what is being asked. > [@](#): > > Well, you sound agnostic to me. Technically an agnostic is someone that believes god’s existence is _unknowable_. I do not feel there is sufficient grounds for that assertion (it’s hard to imagine something that would _prove_ an omnimax god exists, but to argue from that basis is to commit the fallacy of lack of imagination). And as I said, to the “man on the street” agnostic puts one square in the middle between theist and atheist. Why would I use an incorrect label for myself? > [@](#): > > Really? Most atheists I know would easily admit they believe there’s no god. Yeah right. It’s funny then that just about every public atheist has a position similar to my own and they claim no belief about god’s existence. I’ll compile a list later (I can’t do a long reply right now). > [@](#): > > With respect to the tooth fairy, doesn’t it sound ridiculous? It sure does to me, just as it does when the subject is god. It doesn’t sound ridiculous, it just sounds like the atheist is not explaining herself well. I mean, I don’t have a belief about whether there is extraterrestrial life in the solar system either. I don’t have a belief about where Osama bin laden is, or whether he’s alive. What’s ridiculous about this? It’s the default position for chrissakes. I think you’re getting confused because you’re maybe using belief as shorthand for “think there’s a good probability of”, which is the way it can be used in casual conversation. But philosophically, and usually when talking about religion, it has a stricter form. And, simply put, to say I believe that there is no god would be inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/295 "2010-02-17T16:33:48Z")
> [@Some\_Schmo](#): > > I suspected your reluctance (and probably that of most people arguing the same thing) was born out of a need to avoid a theist’s argument. Trying to construct a point of view in response to what a theist thinks is not the way to properly perceive the reality of your position. The point is, I want to clearly state my position without being misunderstood. “Belief” by most definitions misstates my position. And if someone asks “Do you believe that there is no god?” the answer is “No”, based on the most likely interpretation of what is being asked. > [@](#): > > Well, you sound agnostic to me. Technically an agnostic is someone that believes god’s existence is _unknowable_. I don’t not feel there is sufficient grounds for that assertion (it’s hard to imagine something that would _prove_ an omnimax god exists, but to argue from that basis is to commit the fallacy of lack of imagination). And as I said, to the “man on the street” agnostic puts one square in the middle between theist and atheist. Why would I use an incorrect label for myself? > [@](#): > > Really? Most atheists I know would easily admit they believe there’s no god. Fine. But that’s the opposite of my experience. And note the views of public atheists such as Richard Dawkins. > [@](#): > > With respect to the tooth fairy, doesn’t it sound ridiculous? It sure does to me, just as it does when the subject is god. It doesn’t sound ridiculous, it just sounds like the atheist is not explaining herself well. I mean, I don’t have a belief about whether there is extraterrestrial life in the solar system either. I don’t have a belief about where Osama bin laden is, or whether he’s alive. What’s ridiculous about this? It’s the default position for chrissakes. I think you’re getting confused because you’re maybe using belief as shorthand for “think there’s a good probability of”, which is the way it can be used in casual conversation. But philosophically, and usually when talking about religion, it has a stricter form. And, simply put, to say I believe that there is no god would be inaccurate. ---
**Author:** ![Razncain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9d8465/32.png) [@Razncain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Razncain)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/296 "2010-02-17T16:49:12Z")
> [@Some\_Schmo](#): > > As I’ve asked before; who cares what a theist thinks? Do you vote? Then I care what you and other theists think. Do theists get elected to public office? Of course they do. They are often involved in politics, be it abortion, school vouchers, the bedroom, some preferring creation being taught in schools. Many also get elected to school boards, and decide what science books are going to get censored, in particularly biology books, and what it says about evolution. Theists have been indirectly supported by the tax-payer for the longest of time, by having their property be tax exempt. Every time I see a new multi-million dollar mega- church getting built, I’m thinking there is another expensive piece of real estate that gets takin’ off the tax roles, that others will have to pay a little bit more for to make up for the deficit that these freeloaders think they deserve. These are just a few of many reasons of why I think it’s important to care what a theist think, for the same reason, they should care what atheists think as well. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/297 "2010-02-17T20:36:05Z")
Oh, and **Some Schmo** one thing I only realised after my (dupe) posting earlier: you’re contradicting yourself now. [QUOTE=Some Schmo] I honestly believe atheists try way too hard to avoid admitting they believe there’s no god because they don’t want to be accused of having a religious belief of some kind. [/quote] > [@Some\_Schmo](#): > > Most atheists I know would easily admit they believe there’s no god. Which is it? And do you have a point or are you merely trying to provoke? ---
**Author:** ![Fantome](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Fantome](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fantome)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/298 "2010-02-17T20:42:20Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Oh, and **Some Schmo** one thing I only realised after my (dupe) posting earlier: you’re contradicting yourself now. > > Which is it? > And do you have a point or are you merely trying to provoke? I’m still waiting for him to explain the contradiction I called him on in post #270. ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Schmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Some\_Schmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Schmo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/299 "2010-02-17T20:47:48Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > And note the views of public atheists such as Richard Dawkins. Dawkins has a chapter in \*The God Delusion \*called “Why there almost certainly is no god” so I think it’s fair to say he believes there is no god. > [@Mijin](#): > > And, simply put, to say I believe that there is no god would be inaccurate. Funny how this comment makes it sound like you do believe in a god. It’s a fair inference, anyway. [QUOTE=razncain] Do you vote? Then I care what you and other theists think. [/QUOTE] It’s hard to determine from what you said here whether you’ve inferred that I’m a theist, but I assure you, I’m not. But more to the point, I should have been clearer about what I meant by “Who cares what theists think?” All I was talking about was what they thought in terms of “my belief that there’s no god” is/isn’t a matter of faith. Of course I care what they think on other matters; otherwise, I wouldn’t care if they believed in god or not. I think we’d all be better off if we could all be comfortable with the “no god” word view (although I do worry about those people, if there really are any, who are only moral because they think there’s a god watching their every move, keeping score, and would suddenly break out in a killing spree if they thought there were no eternal consequences). ---
**Author:** ![Some\_Schmo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Some\_Schmo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Some_Schmo)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/300 "2010-02-17T20:51:40Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Oh, and **Some Schmo** one thing I only realised after my (dupe) posting earlier: you’re contradicting yourself now. It’s not a contradiction. There’s a difference between the atheists I know and the ones posting on this board. > [@Mijin](#): > > And do you have a point or are you merely trying to provoke? No, I’m not trying to provoke. Are you? Do you feel provoked? My point has been made ad nauseum. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775.md?page=16)