# Is religion just wish-fulfillment? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 5, 2010, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775 "2010-02-05T07:59:04Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Mojo\_Pin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/21 "2010-02-05T18:10:47Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > We’ve been over this before. There’s the desire to be unencumbered by religious restrictions. There’s the belief that you won’t be ultimately be held accountable for your choices on earth, and so forth. I’d say that these are pretty obvious. > > As I said in a previous discussion, it’s common for people here to declare, “Look at those theists! People choose to believe in God because they find comfort in that belief. What a terrible, terrible shame.” This completely ignores the fact that atheists can likewise take comfort in the belief that there is no God. Heck, even if you insist that atheism is merely a “lack of belief” (in keeping with the less traditional usage), one can still take comfort in feeling unencumbered by religious observances. > > As I’ve pointed out on numerous occasions, religious belief is often VERY inconvenient. That’s why so many people fall away. There’s nothing convenient about serving as an impoverished missionary, for example, or about being martyred for one’s faith. To say that this is merely a matter of seeking comfort and solace is to paint a gross caricature of religious belief. Religion is “very inconvenient” in some ways, but there are also benefits in religious people’s minds that they use to justify the costs, otherwise nobody would practice religion. You can’t pretend that people who practice religion are _actually_ acting against their wishes, those who practice really believe that restraint in this life will be awarded infinitely in the next life. Even the missionaries who are supposedly living in dire conditions are enjoying the chemical rewards in their brains of doing what they believe is right, and “knowing” their reward awaits them in heaven. Neither atheism nor theism is formed in isolation from personal pleasure-seeking(it’s merely pointing out the obvious to say that we form beliefs that we want to). It’s just that one of the two is sane. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/22 "2010-02-05T18:12:28Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Obviously _wrong_, that is. Whereas a large percentage of religionists believe(without verifiable evidence) that they will be held accountable by an invisible being after they are dead, a lot of us atheists know from a lifetime of verifiable evidence that we can be held accountable for our actions every day of our lives. Not ULTIMATELY accountable, and therein lies the rub. As I said, people are quick to dismiss theistic belief as mere succor-seeking yet bend over backwards to deny that people can be motivated by the same comfort-seeking desire. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/23 "2010-02-05T18:17:36Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > As I’ve pointed out on numerous occasions, religious belief is often VERY inconvenient. That’s why so many people fall away. There’s nothing convenient about serving as an impoverished missionary, for example, or about being martyred for one’s faith. To say that this is merely a matter of seeking comfort and solace is to paint a gross caricature of religious belief. While I agree with you that there is no reason to single out religious belief against atheistic ideas as being particularly clearly wish-fulfillment motivated, I don’t think those examples you give there have to be examples where it clearly isn’t. Some people do seem to want to be martyrs, to attain betterment through or with suffering. For some people, serving as an impoverished missionary may well give them the greatest kind of comfort or solace. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/24 "2010-02-05T18:17:37Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > No, it isn’t. Atheism has been traditionally defined as the active belief that there is NO God. In more recent times, people have been wont to use it to mean a mere lack of belief, but that is not the traditional definition. (Cites: _The Encyclopedia of Philosophy_ and any number of dictionaries.) Atheism: A (without) theism (belief in God). Without a belief in God. Lack of a belief in God. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo\_Pin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/25 "2010-02-05T18:17:37Z")
sorry, accidentally posted early. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/26 "2010-02-05T18:19:33Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > What percentage of religious people are missionaries or martyrs? I can’t imagine that one in a hundred thousand qualify. They are in the minority, but that’s ultimately an irrelevant objection. These were mere examples of inconvenient religious belief, after all, not an exhaustive list. It’s tremendously inconvenient to offer 10% or more of your salary to charity each month, as a great many Christians do. It’s also inconvenient to have to attend church, especially when the preacher talks about things that you’d rather hear. (Not a lot of comfort during those services, I tell you!) It’s inconvenient to remain with your spouse when adulterous temptations come your way. And heck, there’s no doubt that a great many folks who would love to walk into a porno shop, and yet they choose to curb their desires despite the temptation. When skeptics condescend toward the religious on the grounds that these folks are merely seeking comfort, it demonstrates how little they attempt to understand the nature of religion. Religion can be a source of comfort, but it is frequently a source of tremendous DIScomfort as well. That’s precisely why Jesus described the Christian faith as “taking up one’s cross” (Matthew 10:38-39). If you take it seriously, then it’s not meant to be an easy journey, even if you never wind up being martryed or serving in a foreign land. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/27 "2010-02-05T18:23:14Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Atheism: A (without) theism (belief in God). Without a belief in God. Lack of a belief in God. It’s popular for certain folks here to insist that this on that etymology, but it’s incorrect. It does not mean “a-theism”; rather, it comes from _[atheos+ism](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism)_ – that is, an “ism” which means an absence of God. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/28 "2010-02-05T18:24:42Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > They are in the minority, but that’s ultimately an irrelevant objection. And therefore a poor example of your point, wouldn’t you say? > [@](#): > > These were mere examples of inconvenient religious belief, after all, not an exhaustive list. Who said anything about an exhaustive list? Citing an extreme minority as an example to buttress your point seems counter intuitive to me. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/29 "2010-02-05T18:25:07Z")
> [@Mojo\_Pin](#): > > Religion is “very inconvenient” in some ways, but there are also benefits in religious people’s minds that they use to justify the costs, otherwise nobody would practice religion. Agreed, which is why I refuse to paint religion in one-dimensional terms. The bottom line is that it is NOT simply a matter of seeking comfort amidst difficult circumstances. They may believe in an ultimate payoff, but that is hardly the same thing as mere wish fulfillment. ---
**Author:** ![Mojo\_Pin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/30 "2010-02-05T18:26:47Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > They are in the minority, but that’s ultimately an irrelevant objection. These were mere examples of inconvenient religious belief, after all, not an exhaustive list. It’s tremendously inconvenient to offer 10% or more of your salary to charity each month, as a great many Christians do. It’s also inconvenient to have to attend church, especially when the preacher talks about things that you’d rather hear. (Not a lot of comfort during those services, I tell you!) It’s inconvenient to remain with your spouse when adulterous temptations come your way. And heck, there’s no doubt that a great many folks who would love to walk into a porno shop, and yet they choose to curb their desires despite the temptation. > > When skeptics condescend toward the religious on the grounds that these folks are merely seeking comfort, it demonstrates how little they attempt to understand the nature of religion. Religion can be a source of comfort, but it is frequently a source of tremendous DIScomfort as well. That’s precisely why Jesus described the Christian faith as “taking up one’s cross” (Matthew 10:38-39). If you take it seriously, then it’s not meant to be an easy journey, even if you never wind up being martryed or serving in a foreign land. This discomfort you describe is a small price to pay for anyone who believes that it’s really a matter of eternal suffering or joy. “Taking up one’s cross” isn’t a serious challenge for the true believer, because they have absolute faith that they will have the last laugh while the nonbelievers rot in hell. Jesus says that the poor will the the first in line to heaven–if you truly believe this, is being last in line on earth really so bad? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/31 "2010-02-05T18:27:17Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > It’s popular for certain folks here to insist that this on that etymology, but it’s incorrect. It does not mean “a-theism”; rather, it comes from _[atheos+ism](http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/atheism)_ – that is, an “ism” which means an absence of God. > [@](#): > > Etymology > > In early Ancient Greek, the adjective atheos (from privative a- + theos “god”) meant “without gods” or “lack of belief in gods”. [Cite.](http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/atheism/etymology.html) ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/32 "2010-02-05T18:29:35Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > And therefore a poor example of your point, wouldn’t you say? No, because they completely demonstrate how somebody can do extremely UNcomfortable things in the name of religious beliefs > [@](#): > > Who said anything about an exhaustive list? Citing an extreme minority as an example to buttress your point seems counter intuitive to me. That’s a petty objection at best. Extreme cases are often useful because they provide the most clear counterexamples. Moreover, I already cited more mundane examples of how religious belief can be very inconvenient indeed, even when they don’t lead to death or abject suffering. I think this discussion shows how deeply committed people can be to the view that these poor, stupid theists much somehow be seeking comfort, whereas the superior atheists are supposedly beyond such frailties. Sigh. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/33 "2010-02-05T18:32:45Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > That’s a petty objection at best. Extreme cases are often useful because they provide the most clear counterexamples. So you would accept Mike Tyson’s rape conviction as evidence that professional boxers are rapists? ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/34 "2010-02-05T18:35:19Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > [Cite.](http://www.spiritus-temporis.com/atheism/etymology.html) The website that you linked to provided no source for its etymology, which suggests that it’s simply parroting the same mistaken origin for the term. Every single dictionary I’ve consulted agrees with my citation, as do various encyclopedias of philosophy. I’d say that those sources are much more authoritative. That’s the problem with this newly minted “etymology” of atheism. Like an urban legend, it keeps spreading. Here is a cite from an actual [dictionary of etymology](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=atheist). I’d say that this is a more authoritative source than the one you cited. ---
**Author:** ![JThunder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@JThunder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JThunder)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/35 "2010-02-05T18:39:17Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > So you would accept Mike Tyson’s rape conviction as evidence that professional boxers are rapists? No, but I would use it as evidence that boxers CAN be rapists. Therein lies the distinction between your stance and mine. I am not trying to argue that theists are NEVER motivated by a desire for comfort and succor. Quite the contrary; I’m arguing that this is an overly simplistic view of why people believe in God. Some of them surely do seek comfort, but that is only one of many reasons why people may believe. You’re apparently unable to accept that possibility. More’s the pity. ---
**Author:** ![Dahnlor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dahnlor/32/533_2.png) [@Dahnlor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dahnlor)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/36 "2010-02-05T18:39:32Z")
woops, posted a question already answered above ---
**Author:** ![Mojo\_Pin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Mojo\_Pin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo_Pin)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/37 "2010-02-05T18:44:59Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > No, because they completely demonstrate how somebody can do extremely UNcomfortable things in the name of religious beliefs > > That’s a petty objection at best. Extreme cases are often useful because they provide the most clear counterexamples. Moreover, I already cited more mundane examples of how religious belief can be very inconvenient indeed, even when they don’t lead to death or abject suffering. > > I think this discussion shows how deeply committed people can be to the view that these poor, stupid theists much somehow be seeking comfort, whereas the superior atheists are supposedly beyond such frailties. Sigh. I partly agree. I agree that atheists are just as ‘motivated’ as theists, but that may as well be a non statement, in that every human action is similarly motivated. Your (and my) very posting in this thread is motivated by petty personal desires. Does that invalidate everything we say? The question here is whether the two motivations are qualitatively different. One is a wish for eternal personal well being, and the other is borne of a wish to understand reality in a sensible way, even if it means the loss of a comforting fantasy of eternal bliss. One I might call wish-fulfillment, and the other would be better described as accepting reality. And re: the etymology, the Online Etymology Dictionary parses it as a+theos+ism, which is perfectly in line with a belief denying the existence of god. Why are you trying to make “ism” a dirty word? (e: and glossing over the distinction that atheism is very much a response to theism?) ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/38 "2010-02-05T18:52:58Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Here is a cite from an actual [dictionary of etymology](http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=atheist). I’d say that this is a more authoritative source than the one you cited. Errm, that gives the same _'from a- “without” + theos “a god”_’ definition as **Contrapuntal** ’s cite. Are you objecting because he glossed “theos” as “theism”? Because that’s a picayune nit to pick, IMO. gods & theism go hand in hand. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/39 "2010-02-05T19:01:07Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > No, because they completely demonstrate how somebody can do extremely UNcomfortable things in the name of religious beliefs You might have a point if missionaries complain about it. The ones I’ve met don’t. What your example demonstrates is that religion can warp people’s definitions of what is comfortable, and that in some rare cases can make them masochists (in the eyes of people without those altered preferences and priorities). > [@JThunder](#): > > That’s a petty objection at best. Extreme cases are often useful because they provide the most clear counterexamples. Moreover, I already cited more mundane examples of how religious belief can be very inconvenient indeed, even when they don’t lead to death or abject suffering. Similarly to above, a lot of people I know _like_ going to church and donating. (My mom fully believes that tithing pays for itself - literally, through direct material blessings.) Your argument only has traction by citing cases where people _aren’t fully buying into the religion_ - people who go to church for some other reason, perhaps the wish to avoid being harassed by their wife for skipping church to go fishing. This is no argument that religion is some kind of exception to people’s tendency to do things that have percieved benefits. > [@JThunder](#): > > I think this discussion shows how deeply committed people can be to the view that these poor, stupid theists much somehow be seeking comfort, whereas the superior atheists are supposedly beyond such frailties. Sigh. A lot of religion is explicitly _sold_ as an increase in quality of life, by some mix of material benefits in life and satisfying the wish for security about your state after death. This isn’t something atheists made up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 5, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775/40 "2010-02-05T19:03:57Z")
> [@JThunder](#): > > Not ULTIMATELY accountable, and therein lies the rub. As I said, people are quick to dismiss theistic belief as mere succor-seeking yet bend over backwards to deny that people can be motivated by the same comfort-seeking desire. You can’t get much more “ultimate” than death. In real life, that is. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/is-religion-just-wish-fulfillment/527775.md?page=3)